all right michael let's start here how
did we get here how did republicans come
to have
so much control over redistricting
well really you know in a number of
southern states uh you know democrats
tried to win a seat at the table both in
2018 and 2020.
you know either with the governor's uh
raise or winning control of one or
both chambers of the legislature and
fell short and so unlike in states like
pennsylvania
or wisconsin where you now have divided
government in
the south and you know especially the
big four states of the south texas
georgia north carolina florida
you once again will have unified
republican control of the process and
that means that they basically
will be able to do whatever they want
when it comes to redistricting now there
are some challenges right because
you know the suburbs are getting more
diverse um and it's a little bit harder
than it used to be to draw maps but you
know they will
have to make basically a choice about
whether they want to play it safe
and you know uh you know get a large
number of seats or they want to go for
the gusto
and so that's sort of the challenge and
you know because if they if they're too
risky then they could end up doing
what's called a dummy matter
where districts end up flipping to the
other party by the end of the decade
um or they could play a little safer so
they have some tough choices in places
like texas and
georgia in particular sochi it strikes
me that on that
list of states that michael just rattled
off
there are a lot of the same states we
talk about that are currently trying to
pass voter suppression laws and we have
for a very good reason been focused on
voting rights
where do you see redistricting playing
into this broader effort to control
electoral outcomes
well i think texas has always been a
repeated offender of voting rights
in 2012 you saw that the department of
justice
um challenged their voter id law
challenged the redistricting
maps and now the voting rights act has
been gutted and so
you see the texas legislature is
actually going to meet this week
because greg abbott has called them back
to pass their voter suppression law that
would limit
voting that would also make it easier to
overturn
an election and i think states like
texas they need to be careful
because they can still get a lawsuit
under section two so i'm looking at
states like texas who are repeated
offenders of voting rights in the era
of a gutted um voting rights act yet you
still
saw attorney general merrick garland say
that he's not gonna stand for that
and that he will continue to use all the
tools in his arsenal
in order to challenge that so states
have to be careful here if you can't
necessarily draw lines and discriminate
against african american
latino voters or you will get a
challenge michael i want you to talk to
me about what you laid out earlier this
idea that they have to choose
how big to go how hard to play what is
the calculus there
well you know the the secret to to do a
successful gerrymander is you don't want
to draw districts that your party wins
by 80
because then you're using your voters
inefficiently what you want to do is you
want to spread your voters out as much
as possible to win as many seats as
possible
and and win a bunch of seats by say 52
or 53
um but the danger in fast-growing states
like texas and georgia
is that they're not only growing really
fast but they're becoming more diverse
and they're becoming diverse in ways
that sort of benefit democrats and so
you know a bunch of those 52 or 53
districts if you don't do it right could
end up
flipping to democrats by the end of the
decade but you know the
on the plus side republicans will have
the benefit of more data and technology
and be able to draw more perhaps more
pernicious gerrymanders um
you know uh you know despite all of this
right i mean so they they kind of
know what's coming and and you know they
can kind of plan for it and and that's
sort of
the danger of all of this but again you
know they will have a choice a tough
choice in many places
in texas in particular about whether to
you know
go for the gusto and try to maximize
seats or
um you know give up a few seats to
democrats to shore up some other
other seats sochi you have known for a
long time
as an observer of politics as a
practitioner
that the suburbs are changing this is
not actually news but given the
demographic realities that we're talking
about
how does that then shape how democrats
approach 2022 and beyond
well i think that democrats learned in
the last election that they have to talk
to voters everywhere and you have to
start organizing now
you and in the suburbs as you were
talking about they are becoming more
diverse and
you must have those conversations now
just not the october right before
and we often see the party invest in
african-american and latino
communities right before an election but
now we're seeing them
um invest earlier than ever before and
so we i will be keeping an eye on those
places because
democrats need to make more progress in
the suburbs and
if we want to continue to keep the house
and the senate
and make progress in 2024. michael we've
never seen the type of full-frontal
assault on voting rights in our
democracy that we are seeing in this
moment and yet there has long been talks
about
readdressing redistricting readdressing
gerrymandering what would it look like
to reform these processes at scale
well you know there there is a bill
currently before congress in the senate
called the for the people act which is
s1 in the senate and asia what in the
house which would bad partisan
gerrymandering by statute the supreme
court said in 2019 that there are no
partisan gerrymandering claims that you
can bring
under the federal constitution but
congress has the power to set the rules
for how congressional districts are
drawn
and they have the power um under the for
the people act to
prescribe a ban on partisan
gerrymandering before the people act
also would strengthen protections for
communities of color who are
you know about to get shellacked and
redistricting without the for the people
act but
that of course would require the senate
to to you know take action
soon uh the data that states will need
to draw maps comes out in the middle of
august and after that it's off to the
races and although something can be done
after that it will be a lot more
complicated to do and so really the next
you know five to six weeks
in the senate are essential um and that
means doing something and probably do
something about the filibuster as well
so sochi michael led me exactly where i
wanted to go
which brings me to you which is do you
think it is the understanding of
democrats on the hill that they have
those five to six weeks left to figure
this out
i think that it's going to be a
challenge here i think that you've seen
democrats struggle in their negotiations
and
back and forth um they must do something
now we
we we control the house the senate um
and the white house here and so
it's now is the time to act and you're
going to continue to see some
frustration in the democratic party if
you don't get something done now
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