LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, MY NEXT GUEST IS THE BESTSELLING AUTHOR
OF "BETWEEN THE WORLD AND ME" AND "WE WERE EIGHT YEARS IN
POWER."
PLEASE WELCOME BACK TO "THE LATE SHOW," TA-NEHISI COATES!
♪ ♪ ♪
>> Stephen: WELCOME BACK.
NICE TO SEE YOU AGAIN.
>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME BACK.
>> Stephen: NOW, I'VE INTERVIEWED YOU TWO OR THREE
TIMES BEFORE.
>> YES.
>> Stephen: AND OF COURSE THE THING I'VE INTERVIEWED YOU
BEFORE ARE YOUR WORKS OF JOURNALISM AND YOUR ESSAYS, LIKE
YOUR BOOK "BETWEEN THE WORLD AND ME" WHICH WON THE NATIONAL BOOK
AWARD.
THOSE ARE ESSAYS AND JOURNALISM.
NOW YOU'VE WRITTEN YOUR FIRST PIECE OF FICTION, A NOVEL, "THE
WATER DANCER."
IT'S A BEAUTIFUL BOOK.
AS I WAS TALKING TO YOU BACKSTAGE-- THIS IS MY READER'S
COPY BACK HERE.
I'M ABOUT THAT FAR INTO IT.
SO PLEASE DON'T TELL ME HOW ALL THE BEAUTY AND SADNESS ENDS.
>> NO SPOILERS.
>> Stephen: NO SPOIRLZ, PLEASE.
>> NO SPOILERS TONIGHT.
>> Stephen: WHY DID YOU DECIDE TO WRITE FICTION?
WHAT STORY CAN YOU TELL IN FICTION THAT YOU CAN'T-- OR WHAT
POWER DOES THAT HAVE THAT NONFICTION DOESN'T?
>> THE SHORTER ANSWER IS MY EDITOR, MY AGENT, SAID, "YOU
SHOULD TRY FICTION."
AND I DID.
>> Stephen: REALLY?
>> YEAH, THAT'S ACTUALLY TRUE, I'M NOT JOKING.
I WROTE A BOOK IN 2000, "THE BEAUTIFUL STRUGGLE" AND WHEN
BOTH OF THEM WERE DONE THEY THOUGHT I COULD TRY THIS AND
THIS TOOK 10 YEARS.
THIS IS OLDER THAN "THE WORLD TWO ME."
>> Stephen: THIS IS 10 YEARS OLD.
>> TH IT TOOK 10 YEARS TO REALLY GET IT RIGHT.
YOU HINT AT SOMETHING I THINK VERY, VERY IMPORTANT, AND THAT
IS WHAT ARE THE THINGS THAT CAN BE GOTTEN ACROSS IN FICTION THAT
MAYBE CAN'T BE IN NONFICTION.
AND THIS IS JUST FOR ME.
ONE OF THE THINGS I GOT AT MY TIME WORKING AT "THE ATLANTIC"
WHERE I WAS ABLE TO DO SOME OF THE MOST FULFILLING WORK OF MY
CAREER, YOU COULD STATE VERIFIABLE FACTS TO PEOPLE AND
THEY WOULD JUST BOUNCE RIGHT OFF.
IN MY CASE, I WOULD SAY, "THE CIVIL WAR WAS FOUGHT OVER
SLAVERY," AND PEOPLE WOULD JUST SAY, "NO, IT'S NOT SM.
AND YOU WOULD GO AND DIG UP THE DOCUMENTS OF THE PEOPLE WHO
STARTED THE CIVIL WAR WHO SAID, "WE'RE STARTING THIS WAR GAUZE
OF SLAVERY SM.
AND THEY WOULD SAY, "WHERE DID YOU GET THAT?
WHO SAID THAT?" THERE WAS ALWAYS A WAY OUT, EVEN
IF YOU HAD THE MATH.
ONE PLUS ONE SOMEHOW ALWAYS EQUALED THREE.
AND WHEN I REALIZED WHAT THEY WERE ACTUALLY RESISTING WERE NOT
THE FACTS BUT THE IMPLICATIONS OF THE FACTS.
IF THEY ACCEPTED THE CIVIL WAR WAS ABOUT SLAVERY THAT MEANT
THEY HAD TO LOOK AT ROBERT LEE DIFFERENTLY, THE DUKES OF
HAZARDS DIFFERENT, AND THE MYTHS THAT EXISTED IN SOCIETY WOULD
COME UNDER QUESTION.
SO IT WASN'T AN ACTUAL FACTUAL ARGUMENT.
IT WAS AN ARGUMENT OF MYTH.
AND ONE OF THE THINGS I REALIZED IS THE WAY TO GET TO THAT IS
THROUGH STORYTELLING.
>> Stephen: QUICKLY, TO TELL THE PEOPLE OUT THERE, TELL THEM
THE BASIC OUTLINES, WITHOUT GIVING AWAY ANY OF THE
SURPRISES-- AND THERE ARE BEAUTIFUL AND AMAZING SORT OF
MAGICAL REALIST SURPRISES IN HERE.
>> IT'S JUST THE STORY OF A BLACK MAN GIFTED WITH THIS
PHOTOGRAPHIC MEMORY, CAN REMEMBER ALL SORTS OF DETAILS,
EXCEPT THOSE THINGS THAT ARE MOST INTIMATE TO HIM-- IN THIS
CASE, HIS MOTHER.
HE IS THE CHILD OF AN ENSLAVED WOMAN AND A WHITE MAN WHO IS THE
ENSLAVER AND MASTER OF THE PLANTATION WHO SOLD OFF HIS
MOTHER.
AND HIRAM IS IN THIS SEARCH LIKE ALL ENSLAVED PEOPLE OF THE
PERIOD FOR FREEDOM.
AND THE BOOK CHARTS HIS JOURNEY AND HIS COMING TO UNDERSTAND
THAT THAT SEARCH IS ACTUALLY CONNECTED TO MANY MORE THINGS
AND MANY MORE PEOPLE THAN HE THOUGHT, AND TO HIS MEMORY, OR
LACK THEREOF.
>> Stephen: YOU SAY YOU WORKED ON THIS FOR 10 YEARS.
TELL ME ABOUT THE RESEARCH THAT GOES INTO THIS.
BECAUSE I GREW UP IN THE SOUTH.
I GREW UP IN CHARLESTON, SOUTH CAROLINA.
>> DID YOU VISIT PLANTATIONS?
IS THAT A THING YOU DID?
>> Stephen: OH, SURE WE WENT TO MIDDLETON AND DRAYTON.
IT WAS A FIELD TRIP.
>> DID THEY TALK ABOUT SLAVES?
>> Stephen: YEAH... BUT THERE WEREN'T, LIKE, EXAMPLES.
WHEN I WAS A CHILD, THERE WASN'T MUCH... WASN'T MUCH POINTING AT
IT.
IT WAS MOST LIKE LIKE ARCHITECTURE AND GARDENS AND
THINGS LIKE THAT.
THEY DIDN'T TALK MUCH ABOUT WHO GROUND THE CORN OR WHY THE
GARDENS WERE SO FANCY, AND WHO DID ALL THAT LANDSCAPING.
IT WAS M, LOOK AT THIS SORT OF CULTURAL ARTIFACT THAT IS LEFT
OVER."
AND A LOT OF TALK ABOUT HOW THE YANKEES BURNED IT DOWN.
>> I DID THAT.
I WENT TO A NUMBER OF PLANTATIONS IN THE COURSE OF
RESEARCH.
I WENT TO THE WHITNEY PLANTATION IN NEW ORLEANS.
I WENT TO MONTICELLO IN VIRGINIA, I WENT TO MONTPELIER
WITH THE SHIRLEY PLANTATION IN VIRGINIA TO GET SOME SENSE OF
HOW FOLKS WOULD HAVE LIVED.
WHAT'S HAPPENING AT A LOT OF THOSE PLANTATIONS, NOT ALL OF
THEM, IS THEY ARE BEGINNING TO REINCORPORATE ENSLAVEMENT AND
CONGRESS THE FACT ALL OF THOSE RESOURCES AND THOSE RICHES
DERIVED FROM THE FACT FROM PEOPLE THERE WHO WERE PROPERTY.
IN MANY WAYS, THE REASON WHY I ASKED YOU THAT QUESTION, IS THAT
GETS BACK TO THE WHOLE THING I WAS TALKING ABOUT WITH MYTH.
ONCE YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THE WAR WAS ABOUT SLAVERY, SLAVERY
WAS A BIG DEAL, THAT PLANTATION LOOKS REALLY, REALLY DIFFERENT.
AND THE PEOPLE FEEL COINED OF DIFFERENT ABOUT THE
ARCHITECTURE.
AND THEY HAVE TO TALK ABOUT THE ARCHITECTURE DIFFERENTLY.
IN FACT THEY MIGHT WONDER IF THEY EVEN WANT TO TALK TO ABOUT
THE ARTARCHITECTURE AT ALL.
>> Stephen: WHEN I WENT TO MONTICELLO THE LAST TIME, I
HEARD SOMETHING THAT WASN'T EXPRESSED THIS WAY, THEY WERE
ONLY REFERRING TO THE ENSLAVED PEOPLE, NOT THE SLAVES.
IT WAS A DIFFERENT CHANGE OF ATTITUDE OR TONE TOWARD THESE
PEOPLE.
SLAVE IS AN IDENTITY.
>> YES.
>> Stephen: AN ENSLAVED PERSON IS WHAT HAPPENS TO THIS PERSON
WHO HAS HAS THEIR OWN SINGULAR IDENTITY.
>> RIGHT.
>> Stephen: HI CALLS THE PEOPLE IN HERE FOR MAYBE 100
PAGES WE DON'T HEAR THE WORD "SLAVE.
OF.
>> NO, YOU DON'T.
>> Stephen: YOU HEAR THE WORD "TASK."
WHERE DOES THAT COME FROM.
>> IF SLAVE IS IN THERE, IT'S A MISTAKE.
IF I HAD DONE THIS RIGHT IT WOULD NOT HAVE APPEARED IN THERE
AT ALL.
>> Stephen: I'VE READ 250 PAGES AND IT ONLY APPEARS THREE
TIMES.
>> IN MY MIND, ONE OF THE THINGS YOU HAVE TO DO AS A FICTION
WRITER, SUCAN'T WRITE A NOVEL ABOUT SLAVERY, EVEN WHEN YOU'RE
WRITING ABOUT SLAVERY.
HAS TO BE YOUR SLAVERY.
IT HAS TO BE YOUR PICTURE OF IT.
IT HAS TO BE YOUR PARTICULAR THING.
BECAUSE YOU SAY THE WORD "SLAVERY" AND IMAGES
AUTOMATICALLY COME TO MIND, WHETHER YOU WANT TO FOCUS ON
THEM OR NOT-- FOR INSTANCE, WHIPS, CHAINS, ALL OF THAT IS
IMMEDIATELY WHAT IS CONJURED UP.
THIS WAS A BIG THEME IN THE NOVEL, I WAS VERY INTERESTED IN
HOW ENSLAVEMENT AFFECTED FAMILY S.
>> Stephen: FAMILY SEPARATION WAS A HUGE PART OF THIS.
WERE YOU WRITING-- WAS THAT THE FOCUS OF THIS, WHAT IT'S DOING
TO HI OR PSYCHOLOGICALLY DOING TO ALL THE PEOPLE WHO WERE
SLAVES.
IS THAT THE THEME BEFORE OUR PRESENT NATIONAL FOCUS AND OUR
OWN HEARTBREAK IN CERTAIN WAYS ABOUT THE FAMILY SEPARATION
GOING ON AT THE BORDER?
>> IT WAS.
IT'S ONE OF THE OLDEST-- IT WAS ONE OF THE FIRST THINGS I KEYED
ON WHEN I, AGAIN, WAS DOING THAT RESEARCH AND READING SOME OF THE
NARRATIVES.
WHAT PEOPLE MOURNED ABOUT THE MOST WAS A SON BEING SOLD OFF, A
DAUGHTER, WIFE, HUSBAND.
THAT'S WHERE YOU SAW SOME OF THE MOST HEARTBREAKING STUFF.
AND I THINK THE FACT THAT IT'S RESONANT WITH THE POLITICS RIGHT
NOW IS MORE ABOUT THE FACT THAT WHEN YOU WANT TO BE CRUEL TO,
YOU KNOW, OTHER PEOPLE, AS A POLICY, FAMILY IS OFTEN THE
PLACE WHERE THAT HAPPENS.
IT'S NOT UNCOMMON, EVEN IF SOME OF THE EARLIEST EXAMPLES
ORIGINATE.
BLACK PEOPLE.
>> Stephen: WE HAVE TO TAKE A LITTLE BIT OF A BREAK, BUT WE'LL
BE BACK WITH MORE TA-NEHISI COATES, EVERYBODY.
STICK AROUND.