A journalist is supposed to protect their sources.
It was my source who betrayed me.
This story is about a well-known British radical.
Hassan had been part of al-Muhajiroun.
He was the PR frontman for
one of the most dangerous radical groups in the UK.
If you do not pull your troops out,
you will get bloodshed on the streets of London.
He claimed to be part of al Qaeda.
And basically threatened the entire country,
saying these jihadis are going to come back from Pakistan and blow up.
As a Muslim, to support the jihad,
whether that be financially, verbally, or physically.
Hassan had claimed that he was at a barbecue
with Mohammed Sidique Khan,
who was then subsequently the leader of the London bombers.
A number 10 bus passing through Tavistock Square
was torn apart by a bomb.
He thought that he’d helped murder people in Pakistan.
Those claims include that he fundraised,
recruited, and even killed.
He was implicated in a plot to assassinate
President Musharraf of Pakistan.
But also possibly worked for the security services.
And then in 2008,
it was all outed as a fantasy.
[Investigators]
I’m Shiv Malik, and I’m an author and former investigative journalist.
I’m Masood Khan, and I’m a documentary filmmaker.
I always wanted to be a journalist when I was about 15.
The best part of it was you get a license to ask questions.
I got into documentary filmmaking after 9/11.
When I used to read stuff about my community,
the British Muslim community in the press,
I felt there was a lot of misunderstanding,
a lot of misrepresentation,
and I kind of wanted to redress that balance.
Shiv and I were interested in the same story.
He was writing a book,
and I was making a documentary feature.
It’s my boss who made the introduction.
He said, “Look, I know this guy called Hassan Butt.
He’s out of Manchester, bit of a loudmouth,
but he’s a, you know, a jihadist.
Why don’t you go and speak to him?”
So I said, “Yeah, I’ll give him a call.”
I met Hassan first time in 2004 when I was doing a film.
I was introduced to him
through another person who I met on that production.
The Sun
the top five most dangerous jihadis in Britain.
You look at any press around Hassan from about 2002 onwards,
and he's always at the center of some kind of jihadi plot
or he’s being interviewed about it or he’s giving his two cents’ worth.
Hassan had been the former spokesperson for al-Muhajiroun.
He was their front guy. People got to know him
because he was the one giving the statements.
What was it like dealing with the press?
Eventually, a buzz started building around it.
I’m speaking to the national press and getting all this attention.
You know, there was a lot of hype.
The way we were portraying ourselves to the media
wasn’t necessarily always the truth.
Hassan and I struck up this real rapport.
Hassan, to his credit, allowed me to film straightaway.
So I would just put the dictaphone on the table,
and that was it, he’d go.
From the moment I met him, I mean, I was hooked.
The guy was so compelling. He was an amazing storyteller.
And these were just the kind of details that any writer would want,
like the color, the richness of the relationships.
Oh, he's very charming.
He's really intelligent, smart.
He makes you feel like he trusts you or you can trust him.
And he's very caring. He'll feed you. He'll look after you.
He’ll let you stay at his home.
You know, most jihadists,
almost all jihadists I’ve ever then subsequently spoke to,
they don’t like to be known because what they do is illegal.
I was more interested in the psychology of him
and the people around them,
and how did young British men basically like me
get involved in something which made them so anti-British
and non-Muslim, basically.
-UK, you will pay! -UK, you will pay!
-Bin Laden on his way! -Bin Laden on his way!
We’re now into 2006.
I get a call, Hassan says,
“I’m interested in leaving the network.
Do you want to make a film about it?”
About March time, he sends me an email.
He says, “Shiv, I’ve left the network,”
al Qaida in the UK, basically,
“and I don’t know what to do with my life.”
I said to him, “Why don’t we write a book together about your life?”
There’s these two parallel projects for Hassan
going on at the same time.
Here’s this guy who’d been this public face of hate
now turn tails and wanted to tell the inside story.
Early 2008, he and I go out to Pakistan
to go and verify elements of the story,
for him to basically show me his world in Pakistan.
Can you tell that I’m actually, as I say, strapped?
I’ve used the bigger version of this.
This is a mini AK-47.
I have to say, that was probably one of the scariest trips of my life.
It was... it was worrying.
Finally, we’ve hit the point where I’ve finished the book.
I’m just about to deliver final drafts to the publishers.
But then... in May, we get this production order,
which is basically the cops
who are trying to build this case against Hassan,
the Greater Manchester Police,
want our rushes.
That was the nail in the coffin for my filming, at least,
and I think for Shiv’s book.
It’s ten to eight in the morning,
and I get a knock on the door.
And I open it, and there’s three quite lumbering coppers there.
They served me with what’s known as a production order,
and they said, “We don’t trust Hassan Butt.
And in order to prove our case and investigate this further,
we need everything you’ve ever done on terrorism.
We need all your notes, all your recordings.”
This is more than just about Hassan's case.
That’s not how media freedom works in this country,
because if it did, there wouldn’t be any.
This is about confidentiality and source protection.
My job is, as an investigative journalist,
to keep those conversations with sources confidential.
When you get forced into a courtroom like that,
you've got to defend yourself.
Shiv’s already gone to Hassan and said,
“Look, we’re going to court over you.
Are you sure what you’re saying is true?”
And he’s like, “Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, you go and fight it.”
And the day before we go in, I get a fax,
and the fax is the transcript of what Hassan’s told the police.
Basically say, “Hassan has said that everything in that book is a lie.”
And, “I just wanted the money from the book.”
And I remember the news footage that night with
Simon Israel was standing outside.
Who’d been briefed especially by the Greater Manchester Police
whilst this whole thing was going on.
And he just comes up to me, and he goes...
In effect, he’s shafted you, hasn’t he?
“Everything’s a lie. How do you feel about that? How do you feel?”
And Shiv’s like,
I am unable to disclose that. There’s a court order at the moment.
I don't know what to say. I just stumble.
He’s like a rabbit in the headlights.
He’s like, “How do you expect me to feel about it?”
Sort of caught with his pants down, isn't he?
And everyone knows that...
I’m a f***ing idiot.
Hi, Shiv, it’s Hassan.
How are you doing?
I’m fine, thank you.
Good, good, good. Thanks for calling back.
Question: why me?
-Yeah. -Yeah.
-Why you? -Yeah.
You just happened to be there, that’s all.
No, but you came back to me. That’s the point, right?
Because you showed more interest.
I don’t know why you.
Truthfully, that’s the answer, I don’t know why.
Everyone who asked for it got it, unfortunately.
Masood got it, quite a lot of people got it.
For me, it was an interesting turn to a very interesting story.
It was like, well, this guy is just a fantasist.
Who would want to spend their life
committed to fantasize about being a jihadi
and then telling everybody about it.
I mean, it’s such an odd thing to do.
After the appeal hearing, Hassan had been released, no charges.
I interviewed Shiv straight after the fantasy thing.
We started to talk almost every week, like,
“OK, what happened with that? Go through that again with me,”
just a lot of forensic detail.
I had to talk to all of his friends,
and there was stuff that I was sure was faked,
and it turned out to be entirely true.
I’m still trying to get my film finished,
whether it will ever be finished, but I don’t know.
But it's coming up to close to 20 years since I met him
and started filming with him.
I got to talk to people in the FBI.
And again, they told me what was true and what was not.
I think Shiv and I are probably the authorities on Hassan Butt,
although at least Shiv’s got a book out.
I knew that there was some kind of ending,
and I had to just keep going with this book.
I don’t think Hassan can really ever truly say...
what’s been going on.
You know, Hassan isn’t like a normal liar.
He eventually gets arrested for fraud.
One point one million pounds.
Where he’s been selling things on eBay
and customers never get their goods.
Yeah, after a mistrial the first time around.
So in 2018, he’s eventually sentenced to 13 years in prison.
He’s a fantasist,
and he’s able to weave a story from all sorts of other half truths
in this really intricate way.
And of course, you don’t know until years later
that you’ve been lied to.