-Welcome to The Daily Show. -Thank you.
And congratulations on creating
and working with a group of people
on a project that has gone on to become more than just a moment,
but rather, a rethinking of America's history.
Let's start with the "why" behind this.
I mean, history seems like it has been written,
so why try and write it again?
Well, history has been written, but, uh, it's been written
to tell us a certain story.
And, uh, The 1619 Project is trying to reframe that story.
And it's really about, uh, the ongoing legacy of slavery.
We've been taught that slavery was a long time ago.
-Mm-hmm. -"Get over it,"
which is something nearly every black person
-in this country hears at some point. -Mm-hmm.
And The 1619 Project is really saying
that, uh, slavery was so foundational
to America and its institutions
that we are still suffering from that legacy now.
And it's exploring the many ways that we... that we still are.
It's interesting that you've chosen the year 1619
because many people would say,
"But this was before America existed.
"You know, why not start at America's founding,
"and then not include the years before when this was a colony
and Virginia and Britain were involved?"
So why do you choose that point, and why do you argue,
more importantly, that on the fourteenth...?
You say, "On the 400th anniversary
"of this fateful moment, it is finally time
to tell our story truthfully."
Yes, so, it's funny, because this year is also
the 400th anniversary of the Mayflower.
Yet, no one argues that we shouldn't learn
about the Mayflower because that predates the United States.
-Interesting. -We know that that was an important moment.
Um, I would argue that the White Lion,
which was a ship that arrived a year earlier
carrying enslaved Africans, was far more important
to the American story, uh, than 1620, than the Mayflower.
So, no, American hadn't yet formed,
but Virginia was the first colony,
-our institutions would come out of the 13 colonies. -Mm-hmm.
Uh, our legal system, our cultural system,
our political system.
And certainly, the anti-black racism
that we still struggle with is born at that moment.
When you... when you start off in this magazine,
there's a... there's a really beautiful passage
in the beginning where you talk about your personal journey
and-and how you struggled with your relationship
with America as a country.
And-and it's a really beautiful tale you tell
about growing up, um, you know, on the land
where so many people had died and toiled
as-as enslaved people.
You also talk about how your father
was a proud American
and how you didn't understand how he could be proud
to be American when America seemed to be against him
-in spite of everything that he did. -Yes.
How-how did you reconcile that,
or-or did working through this project change your view
on-on how to be American or how not to be American?
Yeah, absolutely working on the project
changed my perspective on my father.
Um, I open the piece talking about how my dad,
-who was born in apartheid Mississippi... -Mm-hmm.
...uh, flew this flag
in our front yard on this giant flagpole.
And he was one of the only black people I knew
who flew a flag in their yard,
and I was deeply embarrassed by that.
Um, but as I started researching for this project--
and my essay is really about how black Americans have had
this pivotal role of actually turning the United States
into a democracy-- I got that he understood
something that I didn't, that, um, no one has a right
to take away our citizenship and our right
to think of ourselves as American,
because so much of what black people have done
is what has built this very country
that we get to live in today.
What do you mean specifically when you say that?
Because that-that was... that was an idea
that I don't think I had... fully thought about
before I read this magazine, was the concept that...
America's foundation was a lie,
in that it was a group of promises that weren't...
that weren't fulfilled, you know?
To both people of color and to women, in many respects.
And... and what you argue in this magazine
is that black people... basically have the job
of "making it a truth."
What-what did you mean by that?
Absolutely. So, when Thomas Jefferson writes
those famous, uh, English words, "We hold these truths
to be self-evident, that all men are created equal,"
uh, he owns 130 human beings at that time,
including some of his own family members.
And he understands that, uh, one-fifth of the population
will enjoy none of those rights and liberties.
So we are founded on a hypocrisy, on a paradox.
-Mm-hmm. -But black people read those words and said,
"Oh, we're gonna believe that these words are true
and apply to us, and fight."
Again and again, we see them fighting.
At the Revolution, the first person to die for this country
was a black man named Crispus Attucks, who wasn't free.
We see that happening with the abolitionist movement,
largely led by black Americans.
We see that happening at the Civil War,
with the Reconstruction Amendment.
And of course, the civil rights movement,
which brings the franchise to large segments of, uh, America
for the first time.
So we... we said we were founded as a democratic republic,
but most Americans could not vote
at the time of the Constitution.
Uh, but thanks largely to black resistance and freedom struggle,
we are as close to a multiracial democracy
-as we've ever been. -It's a... it's a really beautiful story,
in that... in that it's told, not through the lens of anger,
but rather through the lens of collecting stories, you know?
-It's... it's a the facts... -It goes a little angry.
-A little angry? Oh. -Just a little.
It doesn't feel like anger so much as it feels like a truth.
-Yeah. -You know?
What-what it has sparked, though, is...
is a fight over history and how the history is told.
-Yes. -You know, once this magazine came out,
there were many historians who, you know, came after you
and said: No, this is... this is incorrect.
The primary reason that America sought its independence
from Britain was not because they wanted to maintain slavery,
it was because of taxation without representation.
It wasn't the primary cause.
Why do you think there's such a resistance
to slavery being one of the primary causes
of America breaking away from Britain?
Because we need to believe as a country
that, uh, our founding was pure,
that yes, you know, we had some troubles,
including, um, holding 500,000 people in bondage,
-Mm-hmm. -um, but that largely,
we were a nation founded to be exceptional
on these, uh, majestic ideas, and that our founders,
uh, though complicated men,
were men who were righteous.
But when you argue, uh, that our founders were,
many of them, very hypocritical,
and that you can't just simply overlook the fact
that slavery was a motivation in some of the colonies.
Yes, taxation was a motivation,
but also, uh, the ability to keep making a lot of money
-off of human bondage. -Right.
That is very unsettling, not just to the average American,
but to historians who have seen their job
as protecting that founding narrative.
The difference is, you know, when you're black
in this country, you don't have the luxury of pretending
-that that history didn't exist. -Right.
And what that history has done, it's really marginalized
our story, um, when really, the story of black people
and slavery is central to the, uh, United States.
When you, when you worked through this project,
there are new pieces of information that you discover,
there-there are stories that you find
were never told that need to be told,
and I know you can't write about everything,
but I was interested in whether or not you would think
that other countries who were involved in slavery
get off easier than the United States
because the one thing they did differently to America
as we know it is that they sort of outsourced slavery, you know?
If you think about whether it was the Americas or Spain
or many of these other colonial nations,
-their slaves were in the countries. -Yes.
And then they left those countries, and were like,
"We're done with slavery," but they also don't have
to deal with the people they enslaved,
whereas America has an interesting relationship,
where you have to deal with the people
because they're still here.
So, not to, not to, not to feel sorry for America,
but do you think there's also a reckoning that should happen
in this way in Europe maybe?
Oh, for sure, all the colonial powers need to have a reckoning.
And reckoning also needs to happen
on the continent of Africa.
But I think the fundamental difference-- there's two--
yes, uh, slavery occurred in the bounds of the country
-that would become America. -Right.
Um, but also of those colonial powers,
America's the only country that was founded on the idea
-of individual rights and liberties. -Interesting.
That was founded on the idea of God-given,
inalienable rights.
Um, none of those other European-- I mean,
these were monarchies, they weren't founded on the idea
that every person had equal rights, but we were.
So, that hypocrisy really matters.
And, um, of course, I argue that that hypocrisy
is why we have struggled so much to get over and address
the issue of slavery, because it forces us
to acknowledge this lie at our founding.
Before you go, one of the main questions many people may have,
and you see this, unfortunately, all too often,
is people saying, "Why do you have to keep drudging this up?
"Can't we just move on? It's been 400 years.
Now, can't we just move on?"
What do you hope would be sparked by the conversations
that come from a magazine that delves into slavery like this?
What, what do you, what do you want someone who sits at home
and says, they go, "Nikole, I'm-I'm white and I,
"I had nothing to do with this,
and I don't know what you want me to do?"
What would you hope people take away?
Uh, that's a great question.
Let me just say, for the record,
nobody wants to get over slavery more than black folks.
-Uh, it's not... -(Noah laughing)
(applause, cheering)
It's not to our benefit, right?
So that the fact that our nation can't get over slavery
has not benefitted black people for a single day.
But that's the problem--
we've never dealt with the harm that was done.
I'm 43 years old, and my father was born into a Mississippi,
where black people couldn't vote, black people couldn't
use public facilities-- that was all perfectly legal.
We're not far removed from this past at all.
And there's never been, uh, any effort to redress that harm.
So, what I hope that people would take from the magazine
every single story in the magazine starts with
-America today. -Mm-hmm.
and shows how these things about American life
that you think are unrelated to slavery actually are.
And I hope by confronting that truth,
maybe we can finally start to repair the harm that was done.
And then finally, uh, start to live up
to be the country of our ideals.
It's a fantastic job, fantastic magazine.
Really wonderful having you on the show.
-Thank you. -Thank you so much.
To learn more about this beautiful, amazing story,
go to NewYorkTimes.com/1619,
that's NYTimes.com/1619.
Nikole Hannah-Jones, everybody.