When Jesus seems to affirm his own divinity "anyone who has seen me has seen the father"
a number of claims that Jesus makes who seem to promote his own divine identity, how do
you reconcile that with the divinity of the father in this idea.
Like I said to you before the original language of Jesus Christ is Aramaic, yeah, and a lot
of the time they translated the other manuscript that they use is from the Greek manuscript,
that's right, and they translate that into English and then a lot of the time the meaning
is lost in translation, you know its meaning is lost in translation.
If you go back to the original document and the original language that Jesus said he's
saying exactly the same message as the Prophets who came before.
How do you know that because we don't have any Aramaic texts, exactly, no we don't have
the Aramaic text yeah, because the Quran which came as the last and final revelation; it
confirms that which was revealed to Jesus and that which was revealed before and that's
how we know.
How can Muslims know all this about Jesus, look they were all sent by the same God, the
message was the same.
I have to say I'm always very impressed by the... well to be honest, I think Muslims
most times know more about Jesus than many Christians do, that actually makes me quite
sad.
Uh yeah..I mean he's a Prophet and Messenger for us, how do we know about Jesus more than
Christians because he's mentioned in our holy book, yeah we don't reject him.
Do you know how many?.. we have the birth of Jesus Christ, we have the miracles of Jesus
Christ, we have even the return of Jesus Christ.
You know even the things they accused Jesus Christ of that they say they crucified him,
God negates that, he said they did not crucify him, it was only meant to appear to them so,
but he raised him back to himself, that's how we know about Jesus christ.
I mean the crux of it really comes down to the Bible because all of the beliefs and everything
that you'll be referring back to, the trinity, and all this will come back to the Bible itself
okay and the real question is the validity of the Bible as a source, as a source to derive
this knowledge from and that's what we have an issue with really fundamentally that how
can you derive or use this as source material for your beliefs when there's inherent mistakes
within it or signs that there's been human tampering with the Bible that we have today.
That's something which I mean I don't know how...
I can see you're from the London School of Theology I can see that there, yeah ... uh,
how do you understand or can you understand that perspective and how do you reconcile
that? because I mean we believe the Quran in the original language in Arabic we've memorised
it, over 10 million people at any one given time have memorised the Quran in its original
language.
We have manuscripts uh..even in 2015 was the earliest manuscript was discovered in the
University of Birmingham where they carbon-dated it close to the lifetime of the Prophet Muhammad
ﷺ and it was identical to the Quran we have today.
Hang on, sorry say that again, I didn't know that, I thought that the earliest manuscripts
of the Quran were a few hundred years after the Prophet Muhammad ﷺ So the earliest manuscript
of the Quran if you Google "Birmingham manuscripts" so they had it in their archives for years
and they happened to stumble upon it in 2015 carbon-dated the actual uh there's two pages
two manuscripts were carbon-dated and it was carbon-dated to close as two decades after
the Prophet peace be upon him passed away so the actual they say the animal whose skin
it was written on would have been alive during his lifespan ﷺ for example.
That's cool okay now but what's even more significant is that the actual text itself
is identical in Arabic to what we have today so these things are important when it comes
to the preservation of the text.
With the Bible, there is a massive contrast.
Could you give me an example a textual criticism of the new testament of the Bible so uh I
mean I can there are some numerical differences which I mentioned in the Bible for example
which is hard to reconcile if a person starts to look inside there, so I'll give you one
here which is quite common you've probably heard it before in 2 Kings 8:26 it's talking
about Ahaziah that he was 22 years old when he began to reign and he reigned over Jerusalem
for one year and his mother's name was Athaliah, etc if you flick forward to 2 Chronicles,
I put it side by side here 2 Chronicles 22:2 - you've got all these ready, yeah of course
I mean I wouldn't make a claim without substantiating it, so uh so obviously if I was to say there
is a mistake in the Bible and like just like if you were to say in the Quran I would say
well if you could kindly show us then we can we can discuss it.
So when there's two, when you can't really reconcile numbers, yeah no you're right, so
what that indicates and that's just one there's many others even the account of how Judas
died okay yeah that's a big one, you know one is he hung himself ( Matthew 27:5) one
he fell into a field is intestines came out (Acts 1:18) so both can't be true at the same
time so what this points to is either some sort of copyist errors within the Bible or
actual human error so then when you say inspired word of God then you can't say for sure what
is from God or what is from human additions or subtractions from it so then so its hard...
so because you go through the textual criticisms of the Bible, so you guys have the one Quran
which is the same as it always has been.
How do you know the Quran is the word of God other than the fact that the Quran says that
it's the word of God?
You can't have a circular argument, it is because it says it is.
It's a good question, there are many reasons..if this was coming from a human being and this
is an english translation here in the arabic language there's no contradiction absolutely
no contradictions so this is a proof that this is a miracle itself in itself it's divine
and not only that it was revealed to a Prophet ﷺ who was unlettered he could neither read
nor write so you can't accuse this from him because he is confirmed they could neither
read nor write and he was known even before he became a Prophet as trustworthy people
used to entrust him with everything you know he was known as trustworthy yeah so there's
many many many indications to point that this Quran is actually from God it's the word of
God in many different angles whether you want to prove it scientifically whether you're
going to prove it historically you know there are many historical facts that we mentioned
that they've been discovering the Quran like for example you know you know the I don't
know why can you give a historical...I mean these are all relevant yeah once you can prove
that it hasn't been changed, yeah okay because if it's been changed we can update it today
and say well science says this about the universe let's just tweak that slightly here oh yeah
sure... so the Quran
Also the way it's been preserved it's memorised okay we memorise it in arabic cover to cover
in its original language so even if they were to be destroyed today we can reproduce it
very quickly because we have it memorised and like I said over 10 million people over
that point at any one given time have memorised the Quran cover to cover okay that's an amazing
fact you can't say that about any other book on the planet okay so because it's been preserved
it hasn't been changed and the manuscripts show that as well and then you have all of
these facts stacked on top of it scientific facts within the Quran, historical facts,
predictions of the future um all these things which you stack them up and say...the person
who it was brought to, he said that he was known as a trustworthy person, those who were
the enemies of the Prophet Muhammad ﷺ never called him a liar of all the accusations they
made against him to disprove his message they never called him a liar because they knew
that the people will just not believe this accusation because he was known as a trustworthy
person he claimed to be the Messenger of God and the Quran itself was a proof for that
when you look into it but I think it's a case for a person who is sincere who is genuinely
looking for the truth and is open-minded and tries to be as unbiased as possible uh to
open and have that critical sort of mindset because we say yes critique look question
if it makes sense for you accept it and follow if it doesn't make sense leave it simple as
there's no compulsion in religion but as long as the person is willing to be sort of as
unbiased as possible as objective as possible and open-minded and then I think they can
then I think that person will find the truth wherever they see that and that's all we can
say.
Can I ask another slightly different question, go ahead, if I, me personally, say I believe
in God I worship God in a general sense and I try and do good things, as I currently am
would I go to Heaven?
No, simple answer no, shall I tell you why and we don't sugarcoat things because I don't
if I was to, I appreciate that.
I would like to be told directly how things are.
So we have a horizontal relationship and we have a vertical relationship.
Horizontal meaning with those around us our neighbors our family etc great yeah a person
can have that but they don't acknowledge the one who created them okay and live their life
how He wants to and worship them i.e uh worship is a holistic term it's not just the rituals
that you do but rather submitting to how you he wants you to live it essentially okay if
there is no that that is a person's means of salvation essentially on the day of judgment
every Muslim will enter into paradise, this is what we believe every Muslim who worships
one God and follows and lives their life how he wants them to live it will enter paradise
okay.
So what is it that disqualifies me?
So a person uh so do you say you believe in uh you worship God?
Yeah.
What is that concept of God that you worship?
Triune.
Exactly so this is what is...does that concept because this is fundamentally how we differ
with Christians on the concept of who God is.
So in a general sense, you know we say we all worship the same God but if we look into
it, no we don't; because there are some qualities which Christianity gives or the Bible gives
about God which we say are not befitting for the creator of the heavens and earth, for
example, resting on the seventh day or being a triune God now that concept and the Bible
says that God is not the author of confusion okay so...
(POLICE SIREN)
The trinity I don't think till this day any person has really been able to understand
it with the human mind that God has given us, okay this normally gets parred off as
a mystery or it's a spiritual thing and you don't have the holy spirit that's the only
way, you can't understand these sort of phrases which are commonly used but a person who's
just using the mind that God's given us can never...unless you have a way of explaining
it, because I haven't been able to understand it.
I’ve heard the analogies of the water, they're all terrible, and I’m thinking you know
and you can disprove a lot of them very easily because you're speaking about the creator
of the heavens and earth I mean how can you use oranges and water, the egg
oh you're a person you know, you have your soul you have your body and like this yeah
all these things.
I think that's probably the best I've heard.
Yeah but even this one you're still one person there three persons you know so these analogies
will never never explain it because fundamentally it's a very confusing concept okay and we
believe that God is one in every way shape and form he's unique in that sense.
Can God do something which is not Godly for example can God become uh for example...die...
I mean dying is a human thing because of the soul and body.
I mean dying is... can God stop existing for example.
No, because inherently his essence is that he's everlasting he's always there can he
become ten gods no because he's his essence is that he's one okay so similarly God becoming
his creation is problematic.
God a divine entity becoming his own creation is a problematic issue for us, I would say
that's not the Christian doctrine uh okay go ahead.
I would say probably like the the council I think it's council of Chalcedon in like
451 had this big debate on whether to merge the two natures of christ uh the only christian
doctrine that was agreed as a christ has a human nature and yet fully divine nature exactly
the human nature functions independently of his godly nature so when christ suffers the
christ weeps when christ died when christ hungers he drinks water that is in his humanity,
precisely so that way his divinity is not impaired by his human nature but then that
poses the complication of his sacrifice because the only way to atone for our sins is for
a divine sacrifice you with me, what do you mean, as as far as i've understood when I've
spoken to Christians was that Jesus is essentially that metaphorical sacrificial lamb who came
to be sacrificed for the sins of mankind okay to be atonement for our sins now if his body
which is the part of him which was sacrificed his spirit wasn't sacrificing it still lived
on if his body is what was sacrificed and that body is not part of his divine nature
then where is that divine sacrifice?
I'm not sure the necessity for this divine sacrifice I mean you go back to the levitical
time you know the reason being, for their sins the blood was spilled yeah exactly um
that's not there's no spiritual issue going on there, it's not the soul of the lamb or
the soul of the sheep or the goat is offered to atone for the levites but what i'm saying
is that that body Jesus body his body wasn't part of the trinity, that's correct, so his
body dying his body being sacrificed which is not part of that triune God there is no
divine.... because God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son to come
down so his that divine entity which came down wasn't his body it was his spirit I would
say his divinity and he never had a spiritual death he had he had a physical death yeah...
yeah I actually don't know about that one, I don't know how to answer that but um so
I mean these are the confusions that come into the 100% God 100%Man concept.
I'm just trying to illustrate that point there.
I think what would make christ's um atonement effective is the human obedience of that crisis
in living fully obedient is the one is the only person qualified therefore for heaven
for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God so christ in his perfect obedience
in his humanity is basically so good that it covers the rest of the whole of humanity,
and then this poses another issue of an innocent person being punished for the crimes of the
guilty, okay, voluntarily he offers himself I mean when you look in the Bible he's asking
God why have you..
I mean I know he's quoting another part of the Bible but the words are why have you forsaken
me he's calling out to the father so to say he's a willing participant in this activity
it's a bit of a tricky one because he's calling out to the father saying "Eli Eli Lama Sabachthani"
you know why have you forsaken me yeah why are you forsaking me.
In John's gosple he says no one has come to take my life away from me I laid it down with
my own accord I don't think he's happy about doing that I think that's why he cries out
that's what the willingness is an issue.
l I think in his perfect obedience he just laid out of his own accord but yeah he's not
happy about it I think that's why he plays that, and just inherently sorry I'm just like
I'm just sort of channeling it all out.
That God sacrificing himself in that form to himself to forgive us for a rule which
he himself made... okay that is a very...
I don't have a problem with that....that God sacrificed himself to himself? he offers himself
to save his own people... to himself, yeah, well he wants his people to be reconciled
to him in his relational nature he wants to be reconciled with humanity no one else is
good enough to cut it so God offers himself to reconcile his people I think I think there's
actually a real beauty but he's sacrificing himself to who?
Well so someone said this is the exodus 24 idea I think that um God is mercy with mercy
but he cannot let sin go unpunished someone has to suffer the penalty for sin in order
then to be declared righteous and who's going to suffer a penalty, no our sin is so great
that no one is effectively going to pay for it so he takes it on himself he suffers punishment
for our sin, I think that's the Christian gospel.
So I mean how we believe sin is forgiven, that we adam and eve... we don't believe we
have inherent sin that we're born into sin...you don't... we don't believe that a one-day old
baby how can you say that you can call this child who doesn't know right from wrong that
this child inherently is sinful, okay that seems unjust to begin with if your father
was a criminal why should you be punished for his crimes, yeah okay because we're not
accountable for the actions of Adam and Eve okay we believe that Adam and Eve were forgiven
they repented to God and God forgave them it's as simple as that.
They repented to God?!
In the Quran this is what we're told, really! yeah.
See I need to know the Quran better, Surah Baqarah okay, I'd love to know where the manuscript
for that is, because it's not in our manuscripts.
I mean it's in the first chapter it's in the second chapter you know talks about Adam and
Eve uh...
I don't even know the names of the books, yes I mean there's an index at the back where
you can search certain words and which verses mention those words, okay I can give you this
one this is even better it's got an appendix, this looks expensive would you like me to...no
no no he's from the School of Theology so he can research it, no please take this one
its a gift from us.
That's really kind, thank you.
No problem.
So he repented, God taught him how to repent and he repented and God forgave him.
I feel so we've had a pretty scattered conversation we talked a little bit about the Quran a little
bit about the triune God, these go like that, unfortunately.
I know we've only scratched the surface so many different things but I've actually really
enjoyed this, uh this is good, there's gonna be something to think about, I'm gonna give
you a card with that so you can so if you need to follow up I'll give you another book
so you've got lots of reading material here so this is actually our beliefs in Jesus Christ
how we Muslims believe, now this is what I need.
So it tells you how we believe in Jesus Christ.
I'm so grateful, thank you very much.
Take care, have a good day guys.
Take care.