♪ ♪
♪ >> Stephen: WELCOME BACK, FOLKS.
MY FIRST GUEST TONIGHT IS THE EMMY AND PEABODY-AWARD WINNING
FILMMAKER BEHIND "WHEN THEY SEE US," "13TH," "SELMA," AND MORE.
PLEASE WELCOME AVA DUVERNAY.
HI, AVA.
>> HELLO, HI, STEPHEN.
>> Stephen: NICE TO SEE YOU AGAIN.
THANKS FOR BEING HERE.
>> I'M GLAD TO BE HERE ARE YOU IN YOUR BEAUTIFUL HOME.
>> Stephen: THANK YOU AND YOU IN YOUR BEAUTIFUL OFFICES, I
THINK.
>> YES.
>> Stephen: OH, I LOVE THE COLOR PALETTE.
ALL RIGHT, NOW, YOU BECAME FRIENDS WITH CONGRESSMAN JOHN
LEWIS WHILE DIRECTING "SELMA."
HE MEANT A LOT TO A LOT OF THEM, TO THE WORLD.
WHAT DOES HIS LEGACY MEAN TO YOU?
>> WELL, YOU KNOW, I DON'T KNOW EVEN KNOW IF I WOULD SAY
"FRIENDS" BECAUSE I WAS ALWAYS KIND OF JEN -- GENUFLECTING AND
BOWING.
WE SPENT A LOT OF TIME TOGETHER IN DOING "SELMA" AND HE WAS
INSTRUMENTAL IN MY WRITING OF THE SCRIPT AND THROUGHOUT
PRODUCTION AND POST AND WE PRESENTED IT TO THE WORLD
TOGETHER, SO WE WERE ABLE TO SPEND A LOT OF TIME AND I WAS
ABLE TO ASK HIM A LOT OF QUESTIONS ABOUT LIFE, YOU KNOW,
ABOUT THE WAY I SHOULD APPROACH MY WORK AND THINK ABOUT IT AND
HISTORY.
I THINK MY THOUGHT ABOUT HIS LEGACY IS MORE ABOUT PERSONAL
ADVICE THAT HE GAVE TO ME.
ONE OF THE THINGS THAT HE SAID TO ME THAT STUCK WITH ME IN THE
LAST FEW DAYS DURING HIS TRANSITION WAS I SAID, YOU KNOW,
WHAT DO I DO?
I DON'T KNOW WHAT I WAS TALKING ABOUT.
CONGRESSMAN, WHAT DO I DO?
HE SAID, AVA, DO EVERYTHING.
HE WAS, LIKE, DO EVERYTHING.
WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?
HE WAS LIKE YODA, DO EVERYTHING.
AND THEN HE LEFT.
DO EVERYTHING?
WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?
SO I'VE REALLY BEEN PONDERING THAT QUESTION OF DO EVERYTHING.
AND, YOU KNOW, THE ANSWER TO THAT IS WHAT I'M STRIVING TO
FIGURE OUT, BUT THAT'S ONE OF THE GIFTS THAT HE LEFT FOR ME.
SO ON SOME DAYS "DO EVERYTHING" MEANS ONE THING, ON ANOTHER DAY,
IT MEANS SOMETHING ELSE, BUT IT'S KEPT ME GOING, AND I'M
GOING TO MISS HIM.
>> Stephen: NOW, YOUR DOC "13TH" WAS RELEASED IN 2016 BUT
IN THE LAST TWO WEEKS HAS BEEN ONE OF NETFLIX'S MOST WATCHED
PROGRAMS.
>> YEAH.
I UNDERSTAND THE REST OF THE MONTH YOU CAN STREAM IT ON
YouTube AS WELL.
IS THAT TRUE?
>> THAT'S TRUE.
I THINK THEY'RE DOINGT IT FOR THE REST OF THE SUMMER.
I THINK, YOU KNOW, AFTER A LOT OF THE, YOU KNOW, RACIAL
RECKONING THAT WAS INNS GATED BY THE VICIOUS MURDER OF GEORGE
FLOYD, THAT FOLKS WERE SEARCHING FOR GROUNDING, SOME CONTEXT, AND
I'M FORTUNATE AND GLAD "13TH" WAS AVAILABLE FOR PEOPLE.
>> Stephen: THE FILM DEALS A LOT WITH THE IDEA THAT LAW AND
ORDER BECOMES A RALLYING CRY FOR CERTAIN POLITICIANS, AND TRUMP
IS USING THAT TO DEFINE HIS PRESIDENCY RIGHT NOW.
HE ALREADY USED IT BUT HE'S LEANING VERY HARD ON IT IN HIS
ATTEMPT TO GET REELECTED.
WHAT SHOULD PEOPLE KNOW ABOUT THE HISTORICAL CONTEXT OF THAT
PHRASE AS A POLITICAL TOOL AND AN IDEA OF CONTROL?
>> YEAH, IT'S A PAGE FROM A VERY OLD PLAY BOOK.
THAT'S WHY THE FAC THAT FOLKS ARE FALLING FOR IT FEELS SO
PEDESTRIAN.
YOU KNOW, I HEART IT RIGHT NOW AND IT'S SO DEFANGED FOR ME AND
I HOPE THAT IS WHAT "13TH" DOES, IT KIND OF TAKES THE FANGS OUT
OF THAT LANGUAGE.
REALLY, IT SPEAKS TO THE CRIMINALIZATION OF BLACK PEOPLE,
THE IDEA THAT AND THE GROWTH AND MATURATION OF THE IDEA THAT
BLACK PEOPLE ARE INHERENTLY CRIMINALS WHO NEED TO BE
CONTROLLED THROUGH MECHANISMS OF SOCIAL CONTROL THAT ARE MOST
PROMINENT IN THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM OF PRISON AND
INCARCERATION SYSTEMS.
AND, SO, YOU KNOW, THERE'S A LOT TO KNOW THERE.
ONCE YOU KNOW IT AND YOU HEAR THOSE WORDS DIFFERENTLY AND YOU
KNOW THAT THEY'RE A DOG WHISTLE FOR A CERTAIN BRAND OF THINKING
THAT IS STEEPED IN, YOU KNOW, AN ABSENCE OF JUSTICE AND, SO, LIKE
I SAID, I'M REALLY -- WE DRILL DOWN INTO THAT IN "13TH."
WE GO THROUGH THE HISTORY AND WE DO, YOU KNOW, A SEQUENCE WHERE
WE'RE REALLY JUST SHOWING THAT TRUMP IS REALLY MIRRORING THESE
OLD IDEAS IN WAYS THAT ARE PRETTY BASIC, YET DESPERATELY
VIOLENT.
AND, SO, EMOTIONALLY VIOLENT.
AND, SO, FOLKS JUST HAVE TO EDUCATE THEMSELVES.
IT'S NOT GOING AWAY.
IT'S NOT GOING TO STOP.
HE'S GOING TO LEAN INTO IT BECAUSE CERTAIN PEOPLE HEAR IT
AND ARE ACTIVATED BY IT, SO WE ARE ONES WHO HEAR IT AND ARE
ABLE TO NEUTRALIZE IT WITHIN OURSELVES.
IT'S IMPORTANT FOR PEOPLE TO PICK UP BOOKS AND READ, BUT IF
YOU DON'T WANT TO DO THAT, I TOOK ALL THE BOOKS AND PUT IT IN
ONE PRIMARY IT'S CALLED "13TH" ON YouTube.
>> Stephen: YOU STARTED THE LAW ENFORCEMENT ACCOUNTABILITY
PROJECT.
>> LEAP, LAW ENFORCEMENT ACCOUNTABILITY PROJECT.
LEAPACTION.org.
IT WAS MY RAGE AT THE GEORGE FLOYD TAPES.
I'M USED TO WATCHING A LOT OF THIS FOOTAGE, BUT SOMETHING
ABOUT THE GEORGE FLOYD MURDER REALLY KNOCKED ME TO MY NIECE
AND I HAD TO ASK MYSELF WHAT WAS DIFFERENT ABOUT THIS?
AND FOR ME, IT WAS BEARING WITNESS TO THAT OFFICER LOOKING
RIGHT INTO THE CAMERA, LOOKING RIGHT INTO THE CAMERA AS HE
MURDERED HIM, AS H MAN BEGGED FOR HIS LIFE, AS PEOPLE AROUND
HIM BEGGED FOR HIS LIFE, AND REALIZED, OH, I'M NOT USED TO
SEEING THE OFFICER STRAIGHT TO THE CAMERA.
USUALLY HE WILL BE OBSCURED BY SOME GOOD BRAINY SURVEILLANCE
FOOTAGE OR BODY CAM WHERE THE OFFICER IS BEHIND THE CAMERA, SO
THERE'S SOMETHING ABOUT THE DIRECT FRAMING OF HIM THAT LED
ME TO THINK, WOW, I NEVER SEE THESE OFFICERS WHO KILL UNARMED
BLACK PEOPLE AND, WOW, WHERE ARE THEY AND WHAT ARE THEIR NAMES?
SO LEAP IS BASICALLY SAYING WE DON'T BELIEVE THAT POLICE UNIONS
ARE HOLDING BAD COPS ACCOUNTABLE, WE DON'T SEE COURTS
HOLDINGTHESE COPS ACCOUNTABLE.
WE THE PEOPLE AS TAXPAYERS CAN DO IT AND AS ARTISTS WE'RE DOING
IT BY MAKING SURE THEY CANNOT DISAPPEAR, THAT WE SEE THEM,
THAT WE KNOW THEIR NAMES, THAT WE KNOW WHERE THEY ARE AND WE
UNDERSTAND WE'RE NOT ALLOWING THEM TO RECEDE BEHIND THIS BLUE
WALL OF SILENCE.
IT RAISES AWARENESS ABOUT OFFICERS WHO HAVE COMMITTED
CRIMES AGAINST BLACK PEOPLE.
SO OFTEN WE SAY THE NAMES OF THE VICTIMS, AND THEIR NAMES SHOULD
BE KNOWN, BUT WE CAN'T ALLOW THESE OFFICERS TO SLIP AWAY AND
DISAPPEAR, SO THAT'S WHAT LEAP IS ABOUT.
>> Stephen: SINCE THIS IS YOUR INTENTION OF THIS ORGANIZATION,
NOW, HOW DO YOU REACT TO THE PRESIDENT SENDING IN FEDERAL
SHOCK TROOPS, SHALL WE CALL THEM, WITH NO IDENTIFICATION,
HAULING PEOPLE WITHOUT PROBABLE CAUSE INTO UNMARKED VANS TO TAKE
THEM WHO KNOWS WHERE?
>> IT'S JAW-DROPPING.
THE THING THAT'S BEEN CHALLENGING FOR ME IS KIND OF
THE LACK OF PRESS COVERAGE, AS THIS IS THE NUMBER ONE STORY.
I KNOW WE'RE IN THE MIDDLE OF A PANDEMIC AND A LOT IS HAPPENING,
BUT IT'S FELT TO ME THERE HAS NOT BEEN THE KIND OF OUTRAGE AND
RESPONSE, AND THE OUTRAGE IS GOING TO COME FROM THE COVERAGE
OF IT.
SO I TURN ON EVERY SINGLE NETWORK, I'M LOOKING AT
EVERYTHING, AND THIS IS NOT THE FIRST STORY TORE THE SECOND
STORY OR THE THIRD STORY THAT AMERICAN CITIZENS ARE BEING
TAKEN IN UNMARKED VANS BY, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE, WHO KNOWS WHO THEY
ARE, DRESSED IN MILITARY ATTIRE WITH MILITARY-GRADE WEAPONS.
I MEAN, WE'VE SEEN THE VIDEO -- I'VE SEEN IT ON SOCIAL MUCH MORE
THAN I'M SEEING IT IN THE PRESS.
WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IS?
WHY IS THIS NOT GETTING COVERED IN THAT WAY?
>> Stephen: I DON'T KNOW.
BECAUSE I HAVEN'T SEEN IT MUCH EITHER AFTER THE INITIAL TIMES.
I ASSUME IT'S STILL GOING ON BECAUSE THOSE TROOPS ARE STILL
IN PORTLAND.
>> ABSOLUTELY, AND EXPANDING INTO OTHER STATES.
SO I JUST HAVE TO SAY AND I'M SO HAPPY YOU'RE ASKING ABOUT IT AND
WE'RE TALKING ABOUT IT, THERE'S SOMETHING HAPPENING IN PORTLAND
THAT TRUMP HAS SAID WILL BE DUPLICATED IN OTHER STATES, IN
OTHER CITIES.
YOU KNOW, FOLKS HAVE ALREADY BEEN DISPATCHED IN THESE CITIES,
FEDERAL OFFICERS, AND THIS IS SERIOUS.
THIS IS AT THE VERY CORE OF WHAT WE ALL SAY.
I MEAN, THIS IS NOT EVEN A REPUBLICAN-DEMOCRAT ISSUE.
THIS IS -- THIS IS WHAT OUR COUNTRY HAS SUPPOSEDLY GONE INTO
OTHER COUNTRIES TO FIGHT AGAINST.
>> Stephen: WELL, IN THE FEDERALIST PAPERS, IT SAYS, TO
PARAPHRASE, IF SOMEONE CAN POP A BAG OVER YOUR HEAD AND TAKE YOU
AWAY WITHOUT CAUSE, YOU HAVE NO OTHER RIGHTS.
>> AMEN.
WELL, THAT'S WHERE WE ARE.
IT SHOULD BE MORE TOP OF MIND FOR US.
SO GLAD YOU ASKED ABOUT IT AND ARE TALKING ABIT.
>> Stephen: SO GLAD YOU'RE HERE.
THANKS FOR BEING HERE, AVA.
>> WHAT A HAPPY, CHEERFUL SEGMENT WE'VE HAD.
>> Stephen: WE'VE MATCHED THE
TIMES.
WE'VE MATCHED THE TIMES.
HER DOCUMENTARY "13TH" IS AVAILABLE FOR FREE ON YouTube,
AND YOU CAN LEARN MORE ABOUT THE LAW ENFORCEMENT ACCOUNTABILITY
PROJECT AT LEAPACTION.org.
AVA DuVERNAY, EVERYBODY.
THANK YOU SO MUCH, AVA.
>> STEPHEN.
>> Stephen: WE'LL BE RIGHT BACK WITH ACTRESS KRISTEN BELL.