THE MORE WE ARE JOINED BY DAVID MILIBAND, INTERNATIONAL RESCUE
COMMITTEE CEO AND FORMER U.K. FOREIGN SECRETARY.
THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME. YOU HAVE THIS PEACE OUT IN THE
FOREIGN POLICY MAGAZINE WHERE YOU TALK ABOUT THE TRADITIONAL
TRANSATLANTIC ALLIANCE. YOU TALK ABOUT HOW IT HAS
MOBILIZED PROTRACTED CONFLICT IN UKRAINE.
BUT YOU SAY, THOUGH,, "THE DEFENSE OF UKRAINE IS NOT FRONT
OF MIND. WESTERN CONVICTION ABOUT THE
WAR AND ITS IMPORTANCE IS MUCH ELSEWHERE BY SKEPTICISM AT
BEST, AND OUTRIGHT DISDAIN AT WORST." IF THE UNITED STATES IS
PREPARING TO HELP UKRAINE, HOW MUCH DIVIDED IS THE WORLD ABOUT
TO GET? DAVID: THE WORLD IS QUITE DIVIDED.
IT'S IMPORTANT TO EXPLAIN THAT WHILE THERE IS AN EXTENDABLE
EMPHASIS ON THE MILITARY AND
THE WAR THAT IS GOING ON, MY FOCUS IS DIFFERENT.
THE ARTICLE YOU ARE REFERRING TO IS IN THE NEW ISSUE OF
FOREIGN AFFAIRS MAGAZINE. IT'S ABOUT THE FACT THAT WHILE
THE WAR IN UKRAINE HAS UNITED THE TRANSATLANTIC COMMUNITY,
EUROPE AND THE U.S., THE LIBERAL DEMOCRACIES, ELSEWHERE
IN THE WORLD, THEY HAVE OTHER CONCERNS ON THEIR MIND AND THEY
ARE NOT WILLING TO TAKE SIDES. MY ARGUMENT, WHICH IS NOT AN
ARGUMENT I AM MAKING AS THE FORMER FOREIGN SECRETARY OF THE
FORMER FOREIGN SECRETARY OF THE U.K., BUT RATHER AS A PERSON
FROM THE INTERNATIONAL RESCUE COMMITTEE, IN CHARITY, MY
ARGUMENT IS THAT THERE ARE DEEP-SEATED CONCERNS BEYOND THE
WEST ABOUT THE MISMANAGEMENT OF GLOBALIZATION IN THE LAST 30
YEARS, AND THAT IF WE AREN'T CAREFUL AND WE ARE ACCUSED OF
FOCUSING ON UKRAINE TO THE EXCLUSION OF OTHER ISSUES, THAT
WILL GET WORSE. JOE:
YOU TALK IN YOUR PIECE IN "FOREIGN AFFAIRS", ABOUT THE
GAP BETWEEN THE EAST AND THE WEST. THE SEGMENT THAT EAST
DOES NOT CARE ABOUT RUSSIA'S AGGRESSION? DAVID:
THEY SAY VERY CLEARLY THAT THEY DO CARE, BUT THEY ARE NOT
WILLING TO PUT IT IN A PRIVILEGED POSITION ABOVE OTHER
CONCERNS, LIKE THE RECENT CONFLICT IN ETHIOPIA OR A RANGE
OF OTHER INEQUALITIES THAT THEY SEE AROUND THE WORLD.
THEY ALSO ARGUE THAT WESTERN COUNTRIES
WHO ARE PILING IT INTO UKRAINE SHOULD BE EQUALLY CONCERNED
ABOUT TRANSGRESSIONS OF INTERNATIONAL LAW ELSEWHERE IN
THE WORLD. THREE AREAS OF PARTICULAR
CONCERN -- FIRST, THEY SAY, IF YOU LOOK AT SUPPORT FOR
VACCINES AROUND THE WORLD AND THE COVID EPIDEMIC, IF YOU LOOK
AT THE SUSTAINABLE DEVELOPMENT GOALS MEANT TO TACKLE GLOBAL
POVERTY, IF YOU LOOK AT THE BURGAN OF DULUTH CLIMATE
CHANGE, WESTERN COUNTRIES ARE NOT TREATING THE REST OF THE
WORLD EQUALLY -- THE BURDEN OF DEALING WITH CLIMATE CHANGE,
WESTERN COUNTRIES ARE NOT TREATING THE REST OF THE WORLD
EQUALLY. WESTERN COUNTRIES SIT IN AN
UNEQUAL POSITION AND ARE NOT WILLING TO SHARE THEIR
INFLUENCE WITH OTHER COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD.
THAT DEEPENS THE DIVIDE. THIRDLY, THERE IS AN ARGUMENT
THAT WHEN WE TALK ABOUT DEMOCRACIES, OUR OWN
DEMOCRACIES ARE STRUGGLING, AND I ARGUE THAT IT IS BETTER TO
FRAME THE WESTERN ARGUMENT IN THE CONTEXT OF THE DEBATE
BETWEEN IMPUNITY, THE ABUSE OF POWER, AND ACCOUNTABILITY.
THOSE ARE THE ISSUES I NEED TO BE GIVEN GREATER PROMINENCE.
AT THE MOMENT THE DANGER IS THAT WESTERN CONCERN FOR THE
UKRAINE, FAR FROM BEING SEEN AS AN ACTIVE PRINCIPLE, WILL BE
SEEN AS AN ACT OF HYPOCRISY. ANNMARIE:
YOU TALK ABOUT THE AGE OF IMPUNITY IN A RECENT PODCAST
WITH RORY STEWART, WHO YOU KNOW FROM YOUR DAYS IN POLITICS.
ON THIS POINT ABOUT THE DIVIDED WORLD, WHICH JUST HAD THE
BRAZILIAN PRESIDENT IN CHINA. THE CRITICISM OF THE UNITED
STATES -- IT IS IMPORTANT THE UNITED STATES STOPS ENCOURAGING
WAR AND STARTS TALKING ABOUT PEACE.
HOW CONCERNED SHOULD THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION BE ABOUT FURTHER
LOSING THE GLOBAL SOUTH, AND WHAT SHOULD THEY DO TO MAKE
SURE THEY ARE GETTING AHEAD OF THIS? DAVID:
THAT IS A VERY GOOD POINT.
IT MUST BE VERY GALLING FOR THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, NEVER
MIND FOR THE UKRAINIANS, THE IDEA THAT THE WAR WAS SOMEHOW
ENCOURAGED BY THE U.S. OR THE WEST BUT UKRAINIANS OF
THE SLEEVE RUNS COUNTER TO THE FACTS ON THE GROUND, WHAT WE
KNOW IS THAT UKRAINE IS A PEACEFUL COUNTRY MINDING ITS
OWN BUSINESS AND THE INNOVATION REPRESENTED A VERY SIGNIFICANT
BREACH OF INTERNATIONAL LAW. NONETHELESS, IT IS VERY
SOBERING THAT THE LEADER OF THE DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED COUNTRY,
SOMEONE WHO HAS GIVEN BACK THE FORCES OF POPULISM IN HIS OWN
COUNTRY, SHOULD BE SAYING THAT THERE IS EQUAL BLAME TO GO
AROUND WHEN IT COMES TO THE WAR IN UKRAINE, I THINK THAT SPEAKS
TO THE DEPTH OF SKEPTICISM AND DISTRUST THAT EXIST AROUND THE
WORLD, THE EUROPEAN AND U.S. ALLIANCE.
WE HAVE TO TAKE IT SERIOUSLY. JOE:
YOU GO A BIT FURTHER WITH THAT, HOW DOES THE U.S.
ACTUALLY ACT TO GET TO THE ROOT OF THAT ANGER?
HOW DOES THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION ADDRESS THIS?
DAVID: THREE THINGS ARE KEY. ONE, IT HAS TO SHOW IT MEANS
BUSINESS ABOUT TACKLING THE GLOBAL CLIMATE CRISIS, NOT JUST
THE U.S. CONTRIBUTION TO DECARBONIZATION
AND RENEWAL OF ITS ECONOMY. THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION HAS
MADE A LANDMARK SET OF DECISIONS WITH THE INFLATION
REDUCTION ACT, BUT THAT IS ABOUT STRENGTHENING THE U.S.
INDUSTRIAL POSITION. THERE IS A GLOBAL CRISIS -- I
JUST GOT BACK FROM PAKISTAN AND THAT COUNTRY HAD ONE-THIRD OF
ITS COUNTRY UNDERWATER LAST YEAR.
IT NEEDS THE SUPPORT OF THE WEST. SECONDLY, THERE IS A
SIGNIFICANT ISSUE ABOUT THE REFORM OF INTERNATIONAL
INSTITUTIONS -- THERE IS A U.S. NOMINEE TAKING OVER AT THE
WEATHER. THE GOVERNANCE OF THESE INTERNATIONAL INSTITUTIONS IS
THIS SOURCE OF RESENTMENT. AND THE BETTER ADMINISTRATION
-- THE LECTURES ABOUT DEMOCRACY ARE NOT GOING FAR.
INSTEAD WE HAVE TO STAND TOGETHER TO TACKLE IMPUNITY.
ANNMARIE: I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT THE
INTERNATIONAL RESCUE COMMITTEE'S WORK RIGHT NOW IN
SUDAN. FIGHTING CONTINUES.
YOU HAD TO PULL OUT. YOUR TAKE ABOUT WHAT IS GOING
ON, YOU ACTUALLY HAVE PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD IN THE FRONT
LINES OF CONFLICT SO YOU CAN, SEE WHAT HAPPENS FOLLOWING
THESE CONFLICTS, WHICH MEANS THAT HUMANITARIANS LIKE YOURS
ARE HAVING TO LEAVE, EXCEPT FOR ONE REFUGEE CAMP.
WHAT CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT WHAT YOU ARE LEARNING THERE? DAVID:
THANKS FOR ASKING ABOUT THAT. TO BE CLEAR, WE HAVE NOT LEFT
THE COUNTRY, WE HAVE 250 STAFF ON THE GROUND.
SERVICES FOR REFUGEES IN THE EAST OF THE COUNTRY ARE
CONTINUING, BUT INSIDE KHARTOUM, ARE STAFF ARE
CONFINED TO THEIR HOMES. THEY ARE TERRIFIED BECAUSE THIS
OUTBREAK OF FIGHTING BETWEEN TWO RIVAL MILITARY GROUPS IS A
SOURCE OF DESPERATE CONCERN, IT HAS ALREADY CAUSED MORE THAN
ONE HUNDRED DEBTS, INCLUDING, AS I UNDERSTAND IT, THREE OR
POSSIBLY FOUR AID WORKERS FOR THE WORLD FOOD PROGRAMME.
THIS HASN'T COME OUT OF THE CLEAR BLUE SKY, THERE HAS BEEN
RAISING TENSION BUT MANY EXPERTS ARE SURPRISED THAT THE
VIRULENCE OF THE FIGHTING THAT HAS EXPLODED.
OUR CONCERN IS FOR THIS TO BE SUBDUED AND FOR US TO GET ON
WITH OUR WORK. WE CAN'T PULL OUT BECAUSE OUR
OWN AID WORKERS ARE SUDANESE, THEY LIVE THERE.
IT IS THEIR COUNTRY AND THEY WANT TO BE ABLE TO TRY AND TAKE
IT FORWARD. JOE: DAVID MILIBAND, INTERNATIONAL