[Mohammad] You know what makes it difficult?
[Mohammad] —Is the Catholic Church, which had its origin
[Mohammad] 200 years before Christianity.
[Mohammad] That's when it started.
[Mohammad] The Roman Catholic Church, which is what
[Mohammad] it was, had a two century beginning
[Mohammad] when Christianity finally came along.
[Mohammad] And when Christianity came along long, it ruined it and
[Mohammad] created this Trinity in order to merge everything up.
[Mohammad] So that's the challenge.
[Mohammad] The challenge is: this is not an original belief.
[Mohammad] It took 400 years after Christ to come up with the conception
[Mohammad] In the middle, it was a binitarian conception.
[Mohammad] Then it became a trinitarian conception.
[Mohammad] And for the longest time there was
[Mohammad] no Holy Spirit in the discussions anywhere.
[Mohammad] And we don't find this in the Bible anywhere.
[Mohammad] And then what we find with most of the Christian
[Mohammad] scholarship out there, they say, "Look, the Trinity is a
[Mohammad] forced narrative in the Bible with specifically hand chosen gospels
[Mohammad] out of thousands that could have been chosen to drive
[Mohammad] home a particular—" and we don't say this.
[Mohammad] The Christian Authorships say this.
[Mohammad] And the scholars, they say, "This is essentially a
[Mohammad] form of early propaganda because they wanted the whole
[Mohammad] of the Roman population to come under one understanding."
[Mohammad] Now, this is your sort of problem.
[Mohammad] Now, for the Islamic situation, there is one God.
[Mohammad] Heaven is physical and spiritual, and we are given gifts
[Mohammad] and delights in Heaven that are suitable for the believer
[Mohammad] based on what he deserves from Allah's mercy.
[Mohammad] That's it.
[Mohammad] It's really simple.
[Mohammad] No complications, no running around
[Mohammad] the houses, no roundabouts.
[the one] Are you saying—uhm.
[the one] I mean, are you denying the existence of Holy Spirit?
[Hashim] Okay.
[Mohammad] In your conception? Yes.
[the one] No, no! According to your belief.
[Hashim] For us, the Holy Spirit is angel Jibril.
[Hashim] You know, Allāh says in the Qur'ān
[Hashim] رُوحُ ٱلْقُدُسِ
[Hashim] And that literally translates to the Holy Spirit.
[Hashim] Okay?
[Hashim] So your understanding is different.
[Hashim] We don't believe Angel Gabriel was God
[Hashim] or coequal to God or anyone is coequal to God.
[Hashim] Your own Bible clearly shows you a contradiction
[Hashim] where Jesus, according to your creed, is supposed
[Hashim] to be coequal with God.
[Hashim] But in the Bible, in first Corinthians 11:3, it says that,
[Hashim]
[Hashim] which means the Father—God the Father.
[Mansur] Can I just—
[Hashim] Remember, this was after the ascension of Jesus Christ.
[Hashim] So he cannot say while he was on earth
[Hashim] he was subject to God and so on.
[Hashim] This was after the ascension.
[Hashim] Now he's sitting on the right hand side
[Hashim] of God, according to your Bible, and he
[Hashim] is subject to God, which you confirm.
[Hashim] And also he has a boss, okay?
[Hashim] He has someone with higher authority than him.
[Mansur] I just want to make a comment here very quickly
[Mansur] so that we are very clear about this stream.
[Mansur] So it's a
[Mansur] So I want to make a link.
[Mansur] Hindus believes in several deities.
[Mansur] Do you think this is polytheism, Hinduism?
[the one] Yeah.
[Mansur] So when Christians believe in Jesus is God,
[Mansur] Holy Spirit is God, and the Father is God,
[Mansur] do you believe this is polytheism also?
[the one] No.
[Mansur] So why do you consider Hindus polytheistic
[Mansur] and this Trinitarian belief not polytheistic?
[the one] Because the three are one.
[the one] That's what I keep telling you—
[Swati] That's what they would also say, Hindus.
[Swati] The three incarnations are of one Brahman.
[Mansur] Exactly.
[the one] No, you have millions of gods, not three.
[Mohammad] No, no, no, no.
[Mohammad] Look, the one—
[Mansur] So you haven't been watching this stream, have you?
[Mohammad] You haven't been watching the stream.
[the one] In Hinduism—
[Mohammad] No, let me explain to you.
[Mohammad] In this stream that we had today,
[Mohammad] we had a follower of Krishna, okay?
[Mohammad] And their belief says—
[the one] I didn't see that.
[the one] I just came on.
[Mohammad] Well, this is why you need to have context, brother.
[Mohammad] You can't just jump into a stream and start
[Mohammad] talking about whatever you feel like talking about.
[Mohammad] So let me explain.
[Mohammad] Let me explain.
[the one] In Hinduism, there's more than three gods.
[Mohammad] Let me explain, okay?
[Mohammad] The stream that we had today was a specific strand
[Mohammad] of Sanāthan Dharma, which is the follower of Krishna.
[Mohammad] And they say that Krishna, who is the manifest deity
[Mohammad] in this world and also the intimate supreme deity of
[Mohammad] the Godhead, they have them on both sides and in
[Mohammad] the middle, they say that this is a subdivinity or
[Mohammad] a trio of Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva.
[Mohammad] Now—and they said these three are one, okay?
[Mohammad] Almost word for word, the same
[Mohammad] Nicene Creed that you have.
[Mohammad] So you call them polytheists, but
[Mohammad] you don't call yourselves polytheists.
[Mohammad] That is hypocrisy, I would say.
[the one] Well, one thing I do know is that there are so
[the one] many stories in Hindus and that's inspired from the Bible.
[the one] So, the way—you know, when—
[Mohammad] So the Bible is polytheistic, then?
[Mohammad] If the Bible gave rise to polytheism,
[Mohammad] the Bible at its core is polytheistic.
[the one] Anyone can be inspired.
[the one] Even Islam is inspired from Christianity.
[the one] But what I'm saying is—
[Mohammad] No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
[Mohammad] Look, you can't run over a sentence—
[Hashim] Islam rejects all the key doctrines of Christianity,
[Hashim] What are you on about?
[Mohammad] Yeah, exactly! And we started—
[Hashim] The incarnation of a god, the sacrifice,
[Hashim] the crucifixion, resurrection, the Trinity—
[Hashim] these are your key doctrines.
[Hashim] Tell me which one Islam advocates.
[Hashim] None of them.
[Hashim] Anyway, brother, you know like we told you last time—
[Hashim] We would like to—
[Hashim] You live in London, so come down to Speakers Corner.
[Hashim] We'll have a chat somewhere in the corner
[Hashim] and we can take it from there.
[Hashim] This stream as we pointed out earlier was mainly about Hinduism.
[Mansur] Exactly.
[Hashim] So, let's give a chance to two more guests who are waiting.
[Hashim] Thank you.
[Mansur] One final comment, if I may,
[Mansur] just to link it again together.
[Mansur] This claim that you made about how
[Mansur] Hinduism and Islam has been somehow influenced
[Mansur] and they have similar stories.
[Mansur] I mean, have you read the Gilgamesh Epic?
[Mansur] Have you read the Atra-Hasis Epic?
[Mansur] Have you read the Enuma Elish Epic?
[Mansur] These Epics predate the Bible by thousands of years,
[Mansur] and the Bible has similar stories.
[Mansur] So the Bible definitely, clearly, obviously has
[Mansur] been influenced by those stories from cuneiform
[Mansur] tablets that we can see and read.
[Mansur] Just to put it in context.
[Hashim] All right, thank you.
[Mohammad] Visit the brothers in Speaker's Corner
[Mohammad] and brother Hashim and Mansur, they go there every Sunday.
[Mohammad] And please, just go down there, we'll find a
[Mohammad] little corner somewhere, and they can talk to you.
[Mansur] We can have a chat.
[Mohammad] We can have a chat, yeah.
[Mohammad] All right, brother. Take care.
[the one] One second.
[the one] Before I go, I would like to make one last point.
[the one] You remember last stream, I said to you that
[the one] you know me by my name, Anthony, right?
[the one] And next stream, I come on and I say to you,
[the one] I'm the guy from the last stream,
[the one] and you will know who I am without the name.
[the one] You really knew who I was, right?
[Hashim] We don't know who you are if you change your name.
[Mohammad] We don't know who you are.
[Mohammad] Yeah, all we know is we hear a voice
[Mohammad] and that's all we know.
[Mohammad] We don't know who you are.
[Mohammad] No, absolutely not.
[the one] You recognize my voice?
[Hashim] Maybe—
[Mohammad] I don't know.
[Hashim] —your name same, so we recognize you.
[Mohammad] Or you just switch your video on and
[Mohammad] then at least we know who you are.
[Mohammad] Even then, we don't know who you are.
[the one] I really enjoy talking to you guys because—
[Mohammad] Thanks, guys! Cheers!
[the one] I like to interact with people like you
[the one] to get more knowledge about the subject, you know.
[the one] That's what I was trying to say,
[Mohammad] This is what we're about.
[the one] I don't know any other people
[the one] talking about the subject.
[the one] Like, I only know you guys because I've seen you on YouTube
[the one] and the way you guys talk in Speakers Corner.
[the one] So I know that you are knowledgeable on these topics.
[the one] Therefore, I'd like to come and you know,
[the one] discuss these things, but there's no disrespect.
[the one] I'm not trying to put one religion down.
[the one] Nothing of that sort.
[the one] All right, then.
[Hashim] Thank you very much.
[Mohammad] We appreciate that, thank you.
[Mohammad] Well, take care. Look after yourself.
[the one] You too.
[Hashim] All right, so we got someone calling—a Hindu atheist
[Hashim] but he doesn't want to switch
[Hashim] on his camera in the background.
[Hashim] So we can't bring you on the panel.
[Hashim] So it's entirely up to you.
[Hashim] I've got brother Yusuf here.
[Hashim] Brother Yusuf, assalamu'alaikum warahmatullāh.
[Mohammad] Assalamu'alaikum, brother Yusuf.
[Mohammad] Are you there?