-Phoebe, so nice to see you.
Thank you so much for doing our show.
I know this is a pretty tough time you're going through,
we're all going through, but how are you feeling right now?
-Hi, Jimmy!
It's been a while since I've seen you in person.
I mean, I think it's just sort of --
It just depends on the day or the hour.
You know, sometimes, you feel okay
and you're like, "Oh, things are, like, progressing,"
and other times, you just feel so defeated.
And I feel like I've definitely been kind of
going through that, living in New York,
and, you know, you kind of see, like, the protests
and, like, people marching and the silent sit-ins.
And it's all very powerful and moving,
but it just sort of makes me feel like --
I know that this keeps flaring up every few years
and everyone's sort of like -- A lot of people are like,
"I can't believe it's happening."
I think we have to sort of, like, move beyond that reaction,
because this stuff isn't surprising,
and it only bubbles up because of years of suppression
and oppression and not being heard
and just, systematically, the system is designed
to oppress black people, oppress those who don't have,
you know, the financial means to be able to resist.
And I think that, you know, I'm just sort of, like --
We really, truly have to look at just our institutions
that we are so -- we so blindly trust in a lot of ways,
whether it's, like, local government,
federal government, or the police.
I think we really have to start being more active
in our communities and really trying to be like,
"Okay, like, I really want to have a part in this,"
instead of just only being, like, shocked and awed
when things really go haywire, you know?
People are in a lot of pain. -Yeah.
Especially in the city, can you talk to me about --
I mean, this is -- Can we talk pre-George Floyd
was scary enough with the pandemic.
Did you leave the apartment much?
Did you...
-You know, New York is very resilient.
And, you know, we like to show up and support each other.
But I think there is a mix of some people feeling like,
"Oh, this quarantine is inconvenient"
and not willing to play ball and realize
this is a team sport, you know, which I feel like
is a uniquely sort of American attitude to be like,
"Well, this is infringing my rights to, like, get fertilizer
or go to the hair salon."
It's like, people are dying.
I don't care if I see your roots.
Like, you're 55.
Yeah, your hair's gray. We get it.
We all get it, you know? You're fooling no one.
You know what I mean?
-We're in the same boat right now.
-Yeah.
-And then something like this happens
on top of an already-crazy moment.
And I think it's just an interesting time
that we're living in and sad and a lot of people just frustrated.
And I know I'm trying to change and be better at, you know,
communicating and talking and listening.
You know, when I see that video of George Floyd, I can't watch.
I go, "Dude, enough.
I cannot watch this awful thing."
But I can't even imagine, as a black person,
how that would feel to watch that over and over again
and just -- You know, you're going -- Yeah, I don't know.
I mean -- And it's -- I don't know.
How does that affect you when that comes on?
-Yeah, I mean, I can't watch it, because I feel like
every time we watch a black person
being horrifically murdered,
and then that becomes who they are.
And I think, like, outside of this moment,
outside of the uprising that's happening,
what I want, on a day-to-day level, to happen going forward
is to see black people as not just the trauma they endure,
but as multi-dimensional people who have jobs, who have kids,
who have family members, who like to dance, who love to read.
And I feel like we get so caught up in, like --
You know, there's a lot --
Like, the phrase of, like, trauma porn.
And so, like, you watch that video
and then you'll post, you know, like, a quote
from James Baldwin, as if he's the only black person
who's ever written a [bleep] book.
And I'm like, "If I see one more white person
quote James Baldwin, like I don't freaking know --
-We can quote Alec Baldwin. -[ Laughs ]
Not James. Dude, It's been done. Oh, you're so right.
-Yes. And it just feels so performative in a way.
And I'm like -- I think, on a day-to-day level,
we need to have conversations with each other.
We need to listen to black people.
We need to amplify, you know, black female authors
who are also writing on this,
black trans authors who are also contributing writing
about police brutality, and sort of just remembering
that we are full people who are happy,
and, yes, we deal with a lot of adversity
in terms of racism, but that's not my entire life.
That's not any black person's entire life,
even if you are an activist.
And so I think not seeing us as human
allows these videos to constantly just
stay on loop every few years,
and I think that's really harmful.
So I really want the takeaway to be, like,
outside of however long these protests last,
is that you see black people for all that they are.
-Yeah. Is that one of the reasons why
you started your own production company?
-Yeah. I mean, I think with "2 Dope Queens,"
Jessica and I really were just sort of like --
I think we were just surprised, in a way,
that people really reacted to it
and responded to it so positively,
'cause we were just going, "Well, we don't see
any sort of, like, comedy shows hosted by black women
and, like, the alt theme that's really, like, supporting other,
you know, black performers, other performers of color,
other people in the queer community."
So we just sort of started it because we weren't seeing it.
And I think, you know, I wanted to continue that
with Tiny Reparations, because it's like
you can get to a certain point,
and it's great that Jessica and I are here,
and we have "2 Dope Queens"
and she's doing movies and I'm writing books,
but I don't want it to be just us.
So, when I started Tiny Reparations, I was like,
"Well, I --" My head of development is Puerto Rican.
Jose is amazing. I love him.
The office manager, Mike -- he is Vietnamese.
And we really just wanted to have this amazing sort of, like,
diverse sort of, like, think tank of, like,
how we can develop different projects right now.
-I agree.
I think that's totally -- You know,
one thing I was looking at, what you can't kind of get away from,
if you do look at social media, is that a lot of people
are saying, "It's not a black person's job
to tell white people -- teach allies how to be allies."
-Yes.
-And, so, I was wondering what your take on that is.
I mean, I know it's not your job to teach me
how to relate better, but how would you kind of
lay it out for anyone who's watching?
-Yeah, I mean, I think that, you know,
whenever you're curious about something, we have the Internet,
and so if people can sort of go on Yelp to find the best tacos
and spend like two hours searching for fajitas --
You know what I mean?
No one's confused about how to do that,
but when it's about, you know, social justice
and really showing up and being an ally
and making things better, I feel like
there's this tendency to be like,
"Oh, I don't know what to do.
I need help."
And it's like, I already have a job.
I can't take on another job. I can't do it.
-Yeah. At least Google it first. -Yeah.
-You can't come to me asking me every single thing, yeah.
-Yeah, and I think it's about, you know, in the workplace,
like, if you hear of a job listing,
like, make sure you're not just referring it
to your white friends, but your black friends.
Make sure that -- You know, I see a lot of people
on social media, a lot of celebs and a lot of people
who are trying to amplify the message, and they may donate.
And I'm like, that's fantastic, but if you aren't
having conversations about race with your children,
that's also part of the problem.
And it's not just about this moment,
but it's about for the rest of our lives.
-Yeah. It started -- Yeah, for those who haven't started,
start now and know that there is no end.
This is just part of your life now.
And that's just the way I'm looking at it, too.
Like, I have a new -- I have new things I have to do.
And I have two little girls that I'm thinking about every day
and I go, "I want them to have a great understanding
of where everyone is and that we're all human
and that we have to help each other and we have to look out
and we have to give back constantly, always.
-Yeah. -Do you mind sticking around?
I'd like to ask you some more questions when we come back.
-Sure. I'd love to. -Cool.