Marijuana is now legal in California!
2022 could be the biggest year yet for global cannabis legalization,
but there are serious problems.
Canada to Lebanon, criminal groups are not giving up their businesses,
and giant corporations are taking over the emerging legal markets.
Well, you’ve got people that aren’t even from Los Angeles
coming in and raking in huge profits
from a business and an industry that we created.
We created this. They didn’t create this.
I’m JS Rafaeli.
I’ve spent years writing about drugs—
why people take them
and why our governments chose to declare war on them.
At VICE, we make a lot of films about drugs,
but in this show, I get to dig a bit deeper.
I get to talk to fellow expert drug nerds about their research
into the crazy world of mind-altering substances.
[NEWS ON DRUGS]
What an exciting time to be engaged, particularly in the cannabis debate.
Paul North is the director of the cannabis think tank Volteface.
In this episode, we’re going to figure out
who’s doing best in creating legal cannabis markets
and which countries need to up their game.
Paul, good to see you, man. How’s it going?
Yeah, good to see you too, mate. I’m all right.
Right now, so many US states and countries across the world
are legalizing cannabis to certain extents.
Can you give us just a lightning overview
about where we’re at with this?
I think what we’re seeing globally
is, very quickly, policymakers and governments
are seeing the immense benefits to changing our current drug policies.
We’ve seen 50 years plus globally of massive failures
when it comes to dealing with the problems caused by drugs.
In the last five years,
I’ve seen a massive shift and change,
and we’ve gone from a discussion around
should we change our drug laws,
should we legalize cannabis, yes or no?
Now the discussion that we’re having is:
what should that look like?
Because even when you engage social conservatives on this issue,
or groups that traditionally are anti-reform
and have supported prohibition for years,
even those groups are looking at the situation and saying,
“This isn’t right. This isn’t working.”
But legalizing something that’s been illegal for so long
is never going to be simple, right?
And I’m interested in how different criminal markets around the world
are reacting to this.
Like, the cartels aren't just going to pack up and go home, are they?
This is where the issue becomes exceptionally complicated
because in those 50 years of failure,
criminal gangs have got incredibly powerful, incredibly influential,
and they're making a lot of money.
The illegal market is basically
the most free market you can possibly think of.
It’s a libertarian’s dream, in many ways.
When you compete with that, it makes it very difficult
because you’re up against the freest of markets
that can deliver to your door whenever it wants, round the clock.
It can change its prices in an instant.
It pays zero tax.
It can recruit people for next to nothing
in any age bracket.
It could have 14-year-olds, 15-year-olds, 16-year-olds
running around selling drugs.
Regulated, sensible businesses and industries can’t do that,
and rightly so.
But when it comes to introducing models to tackle that,
you’re up against a lot of resistance.
If you legalize cannabis, if you can’t make it cheaper,
make it a better quality of product,
make it quicker in terms of delivery to the consumer,
how are you going to eliminate that illicit market?
The territory where we’ve probably got the most data is probably Canada.
How are they doing with limiting the illicit market
and getting people on to buying from the legal trade?
I think it is fair to say
that it’s not been as successful as they would’ve liked it to have been.
More recent stats suggest
it’s around 50, 60 percent of the illegal market.
Even though that model has only been around for two or three years,
it is slowly moving in the right direction.
But a lot of people still access the illicit market.
When you go and speak to those individuals,
you know, “Why are you still accessing the illicit market?”
[the answer is] cost, quality of product,
and ease of access.
Those were the initial criticisms of the Canadian market.
And one would have to say that
a 50 percent reduction in any other form of crime
would probably be held as pretty major success, right?
The beauty of this, the beauty of policy
is you can change and edit it over time.
So what Health Canada can do is they can listen to consumers,
hear that, “Oh, it’s a pricing issue.
OK, well, let’s adjust and change the pricing issue.”
You can tinker it and make those changes to move it along.
I'm thinking about places like Lebanon and maybe Morocco,
where people who are producing the cannabis
actually actively want to fight against the government legalizing
because it might take away their market.
But I told you, this legalization doesn’t work well in practice
unless you remove the entire ruling elite
and throw them in the trash.
I mean, this is one of the challenges.
This is the issue you’ve got off the back of years and years
and years of prohibition.
We’re not talking about small-time people.
We’re talking about serious players with huge access to resources,
in some places with access to government and policymakers,
so it can be a challenge.
You're right in those cases, you know, Lebanon, Morocco,
but Mexico’s going to be really interesting as well.
That’s been on the agenda for a long time,
and they’re definitely going to do it.
When that comes to fruition, it’s going to be very interesting.
How do cartels with exceptional amounts of wealth
and influence and power,
how do they interact with this emerging legal market?
All of this area is ours.
It’s for the cattle, for agriculture.
We also have salvia, weed.
This is so far away from any city. Do the police ever come by here?
Once in a while they pass by, but they just go on their way.
If they come cool, we’ll also be cool.
We cooperate with them.
But if they come aggressively, we’ll respond aggressively.
So top of the league and bottom of the league
for dealing with the illicit market.
Who’s doing the best? Who’s doing the worst?
Canada, I think, is probably the best example
because it’s on the right track,
but it’s taking public health seriously.
Well, they’re being very Canadian about the issue, to be honest,
being very methodical and not rushed to the, like,
“Let’s do the maddest, most exciting thing we could possibly do.”
So, it’s legalization 1.0,
we are entering the unknown, somewhat.
Now a lot of people do have concerns that the newly emerging legal market
will be captured by a few giant cannabis corporations, right?
Where have we seen that happen,
and has anyone actually managed to avoid it?
So there are certainly concerns that exist around big corporations
capturing the market.
The reality of the situation is that the North American market,
Canada in particular,
is dominated by a lot of large corporations.
Now, one thing that is particularly concerning for me, as an advocate,
is I do want to see those corporations
engaged and involved in the system,
but I also want to see craft cultivators.
I want to see a little bit of diversity.
Part of the challenge is, because the tax rates are so high
and there’s not loads of money to be made right now from the market,
the big companies can dominate it and just run at a loss.
So, those big corporations that have already
raised lots and lots of capital,
got lots of backing from the alcohol industry, et cetera,
they’re able to survive that initial struggle
and that initial period.
So for me, that is of concern.
I think Canada is an example where the government needs to do more
to support craft brewers and new businesses.
We see Canadian companies popping up in Jamaica, Colombia,
all over the Caribbean.
Are we seeing a new kind of cannabis colonialism?
So Canada, multiple US states
are certainly years ahead of the rest of the world.
It’s meant that some of these corporations
have accumulated already a lot of wealth,
a lot of influence, and a lot of ambition.
So you are seeing North American companies engage markets
and governments and groups all around the world
to try and set up grow facilities
recognizing that they’re ahead of the game.
There’s two sides to this.
On one hand, good. They’ve got the capital.
They should be trying to help people lobby and change the law.
But on the other hand,
the way in which policy is created and does move,
it can’t just be a copy and paste
of what’s great for those corporations and big business.
It needs to be modeled on a system that works well in that community.
And what about my favorite legal cannabis model, Uruguay?
You love Uruguay.
I love Uruguay.
I’m smoking weed with the president of Uruguay
at his farm outside of Montevideo.
We are trying to confront drug trafficking
by organizing the market and taking it away from them.
That’s Uruguay’s position.
So, Uruguay is interesting.
They certainly have taken a stance of a model which isn’t pro-business.
In terms of their choice, you can get access to five strains,
but you have to go to a pharmacy.
If you’re passionate about cannabis, if you enjoy homegrown,
if you’ve got the space, the facility, the knowledge,
or just the interest in growing cannabis,
Uruguay is a good model because it allows that—
it allows people to grow their own cannabis.
There’s an interesting discussion to be had there,
whether you go for a model in a market which is aimed at
consumers who want to create a market,
want to create industry, want to create business,
or you say, “Actually, we just don’t like [that]
people who currently possess are being criminalized,
and we think people should grow their own.
The rest, we’re not too bothered about right now.”
Yeah, cannabis is a great gateway drug to gardening.
So who's top of the league? Who's bottom of the league?
Who are we giving a gold star to?
If we’re looking at the issue of corporate capture,
I think Canada is the country that has a lot of work to do.
There certainly needs to be more attention paid to
those smaller craft companies.
I think Uruguay is interesting
because it’s obviously gone down a noncommercial route.
However, they are still private companies that operate there
that have won licenses and tenders to provide that product.
So one of the problems with that corporate model
is that many of the very people who were most harmed by the war on drugs
are or feel like they’re getting squeezed out of
the newly emerging legal markets.
Do you feel like the Black community has access to the industry out west?
Hell, no.
Fuck no, they can’t afford it.
You know what I mean? At the end of the day,
it costs so much to even submit an application.
You know what I mean? I mean, hundreds of thousands of dollars,
and then you have to show hundreds of thousand dollars of working capital.
That’s why I had to continue to be an advocate
to try to change some of these laws
and break down some of these barriers
so that we can allow some of the smaller people to participate
and we can really uplift our community.
Has anyone actually really done well in making social equity
really at the heart of their legal system?
There have been some attempts to address
the issue of so-called social equity when it comes to cannabis.
I’ll just start with Canada—
they’ve not done a particularly good job.
Canada, in their legalization,
didn’t really consider this issue with a great deal of detail
and, as we’ve just talked about,
have been dominated by some of those big organizations.
So, New York, they’re launching a legal adult use market.
They’ve already got medical market.
Now what New York have been able to do
is see some of the implementation of social equity models
in other states.
So, they’re seeing Colorado, they’re seeing California,
they’re seeing Massachusetts.
Now basically, the models that have gone wrong
that I would maybe give six out of ten,
Colorado would be an example of this,
is they’ve recognized the importance of giving back to the people
and the communities who have been vastly, disproportionately affected
by prohibition.
For a social equity program to work,
yes, you do need to give people preferential loans and licenses,
but you’ve also got to provide cash injections
and you’ve also got to provide educational mentorship
and support to make sure people's programs and initiatives work.
It seems like just the base level requirement for any system
would be expunging the records of people with cannabis convictions
from the prohibition era, right?
Because that fell so disproportionately
on communities of color, especially.
I see this as one of the biggest issues we currently have
with regards to legal, regulated cannabis markets.
There’s been nowhere near enough expungement of criminal records.
It’s been incredibly lazy.
New York, again, is coming forward
as a good example of automatic expungement.
That’s good. I like to see systems like that
because many people that have been
disproportionately impacted by prohibition
aren’t always aware of the fact that these things have been implemented.
All right, so we’re seeing gold star in New York, but let’s wait and see.
Canada must try harder.
Absolutely, yeah. Canada definitely needs to try harder.
Let’s talk about medical cannabis.
Over the countries where medical cannabis is legal, at least on paper,
who’s getting the best access and who’s getting the worst?
What I see with this is two very contrasting models.
In North America,
people typically have quite a high level of ownership
and control over their healthcare
and certainly the drugs that they’re prescribed.
Anyone who’s a fan of the NFL like me,
you see advert after advert for “Take this drug. Try this drug.
Go to your doctor and ask for this drug.”
You think, “Wow, OK, it’s that easy.
Just ask your doctor for a drug and you get it.”
That model, that private healthcare model
is very libertarian in a lot of respects—
my body, my health,
I’m going to tell you what I want.
I’ve seen the advert. I want that substance.
And there’s some problems with that, as we’ve seen with fentanyl.
The rise of fentanyl off the back of the American opioid crisis
is in part due to that very relaxed,
“What do you want? Have your medication.”
But when it comes to medical cannabis,
it's actually quite beneficial.
But there is a truth that they’re very comfortable with
a healthcare model in which you can walk into a dispensary
with a card that identifies you as a medical patient.
Here in Europe, we’ve seen some real challenges with that,
so obviously our medical systems don’t function in the same way.
They’re very bureaucratic, very heavy on research,
particularly the UK.
You know, one thing that people need to know out there is:
Anyone in the UK could be legally prescribed cannabis.
Just go online, find a private clinic,
have a conversation with a doctor,
and within a matter of days,
you can be prescribed legal cannabis flower.
However, it's still not available on the NHS.
So you do have to go to a private doctor,
and you do have to pay fees and pay for the medicine.
Outside of Europe, Israel is doing particularly well.
See, Israel has been ahead of the game for a while
when it comes to medical cannabis.
They've done lots of research. They've got lots of data.
They’ve got lots of pioneering doctors,
lots of pioneering studies,
and they’re doing OK.
They’re seeing a growing medical market.
And that Israeli research is becoming particularly useful in terms of
helping advance the causes in the rest of Europe.
A lot of the patients I speak to do have huge problems with the system,
particularly in the UK.
And I think there is something that’s been on my mind
of maybe when we talked about social equity,
actually, medical cannabis has to be part of that
as a kind of disability as social equity.
A hundred percent.
I think the voices of patients and the experience of patients
are really, really important,
and we should absolutely put them at the forefront of policy
and be listening to their concerns
and finding out ways to make that better.
We have 1.4 million medical cannabis patients in the UK
and many of them struggling to access the drug legally through clinics.
Now, some of that might just be about awareness and knowledge,
some of that might be about price,
but what’s really fundamental and crucial is that governments,
policy makers, and the industry listen to patients
and create a system that does allow them to access it
and does bring them out of an illicit market into a legal market.
Who’s top of the league in medical cannabis
and who’s bottom of the league?
In the short term, and with regards to access,
I think you have to look at places like Colorado, California.
Now, that answer will upset a lot of people
because it's not very medical.
It’s very much like if you identify as a medical patient,
you can see a physician, and you can get a card.
But the reality is, for me, that addresses the short-term issue
of people’s lives being changed by medical cannabis.
I think what someone else might say
with more of a medical hat on and less recreational
is they would say Israel is a good example.
Israel and Germany are interesting
because they’re creating lots of evidence, lots of data,
lots of research,
and they’re finding out more and more about strains
and how they change people’s conditions and experiences
every single year.
So, Israel’s probably the best example of a medical market.
But as an advocate and campaigner,
I like the American model, which is just giving access now.
It’s helping people in the short term, straight away.
What about the environmental impact of legal cannabis
and things like industrial hemp being used for business?
Hemp is interesting because it’s an incredibly useful crop.
You can use it for loads of things,
from building materials to rope to clothes, to make CBD.
It's an incredibly versatile, environmentally friendly crop.
Yet, the illicit nature of cannabis
and the stigmatization that’s occurred with cannabis
have led to policymakers to fall over the issue of hemp.
We’ve got this ridiculous situation now,
particularly in the UK, where you can buy CBD,
but we can’t make CBD
because the government force hemp farmers to burn the crop.
There’s loads of things we can do with hemp,
but because of the illegality of extracting CBD,
the hemp market is struggling to flourish here in the UK.
Globally, you’re seeing reform, you’re seeing change.
China is doing a lot with regards to hemp.
They’re positioning themselves. They have been for a long time.
They’re seeing the benefits of that.
Europe’s getting there.
But you know, it’s just the stigma it’s the stigmatization.
As governments become aware
of the importance of the discussion around the environment
and around sustainability,
I think hemp will increasingly come up and up the agenda.
I guess one last thing:
Whose model is the most fun
and the most likely to tempt people away from the illicit market?
This is the most interesting conversation for me.
Fundamentally, it’s got to be an enjoyable experience
because if it’s not an enjoyable experience,
people aren’t going to use it.
And when you’re creating markets, you need people to use it.
So personally, I think the models that are coming up in the States
are interesting.
They might go a bit too far in terms of the market
and the lack of regulation for some people,
but if you’re a consumer of cannabis,
they look like really interesting, exciting models.
You can get a wide range of products, a wide range of strains.
To me, those models are the most fun.
Whether they’re the safest? No, I don’t think so.
The Canadian model is probably a sensible in-between.
The product diversity has increased, you can get edibles now,
but essentially speaking, it’s not...
you know, they’re still not allowed to market the products.
There’s still some limitations.
Whereas if you go to the States, it’s the sweet shop.
It’s a cannabis sweet shop.
So who gets the
best legal cannabis model in the world?
Best in the world?
You’re going to say Uruguay, I know you are.
I am going to say Uruguay.
I think the best legal regulated model in the world
is Canada.
However, they have a lot of work to do,
particularly around social equity.
Now, I made that decision Canada over the States
because I think they will get there with social equity.
I think they will start taking that seriously.
I think they’ll start to address some of those concerns.
So for me, it's very close between Canada, Colorado.
But I think in terms of with my UK hat on,
what’s the model that I think we should be looking to,
what’s the model we should be talking about as campaigners,
as advocates?
I think Canada’s best bet.