In a perfect world, no one would be hungry.
In a perfect world, everyone would have a home.
In a perfect world, there'd be no crime or war.
In a perfect world,
I could eat potato chips for every meal
and never have to worry about getting all my vitamins!
Well, that's a smaller concern,
but I'm glad you know what you want.
This perfect world we're describing is a utopia,
a place free from suffering and strife,
and I don't think I'm exaggerating
when I say every religion
and myth system in the world imagined a paradise or two.
But in myths, utopias aren't meant for us regular folk.
And in fiction, they're portrayed as impossible.
They're meant to be aspirational.
So Dr. Z and I have aspired to make our own.
First, let's look at some myths
to find traits of utopias we love and could do without.
[curious music]
Utopias are the everything bagel seasoning of myth devices
because they are born
out of something everyone everywhere can relate to:
the desire for a better existence,
even one currently out of our mortal reach.
And because our primate brains are comforted by greenery,
utopias have long been described
as having beautiful, bountiful gardens.
Remember Utnapishtim from our Gilgamesh episode?
No? Uh, that's fine.
He was the guy beyond the dark mountain pass
who lived in a glittering garden
and told Gil how to achieve immortality.
The gods had made him immortal
after he saved humanity from the great flood,
then transported him to the Garden of the Gods.
It had bushes and foliage covered in precious gems
like rubies and lapis lazuli.
The garden was described as a pure and clean place
where the wolf snatched not the lamb.
Basically, it was safe and bountiful,
everything our distant ancestors dreamed of.
According to some myths, the garden was the site
where Enlil split heaven from the earth
and created humans to spread across the earth.
Scholars believe the Sumerian Garden of the Gods
was the inspiration for the Garden of Eden.
Our species isn't confined to the jungle anymore.
We've spread out to and fallen in love
with different environments,
adapting our diets, habits,
and even our biology to make them habitable.
So what do we think our utopia would look like?
I know you had an idea in mind when you chose Tiamat.
Well, we know I'm obsessed with Tiamat,
mother of monsters,
but I think that water is the basis of all creation.
There's so many mythologies, if not all of them, right,
-that start that way? -Right.
(Dr. Z) So I think it's really important to have, like,
a water-based.
I think that's great.
I think we can put an island on water
surrounded by the water of Tiamat
because we learned in our Pele and Kamapua'a episode
that Hawaii, or some of the islands of Hawaii,
are really ecologically diverse,
and I think that's important for our utopia
because there are so many beings
and people who will live there, right?
In some of the myths that we just covered,
the plants are made of jewels.
Is that something you want to incorporate?
-Yes. -Yeah.
(Dr. Z) I love shiny things.
I don't know if I was, like, a crow in a past life
or whatever, but yes, the more jewels the better.
I think that why not?
In my perfect paradise, I just wanna be slathered in jewels
and have the world surrounded by jewels,
and everyone gets to look at the beauty.
I love that.
But in terms of how it looks,
do you want everything to be naturally colored?
We talked on Mount Penglai about how everything is white.
I like color.
I don't know about you, I think it's also problematic
to make everything white.
So I prefer to stay away from that.
-More colors the better. -(Dr. McT) Great.
Can we give it extra colors?
-(Dr. Z) Yes, why not? -Okay.
(Dr. Z) Colors that don't exist from the spectrum that we see them?
(Dr. McT) Mm-hmm. Extra colors,
and also just like everything is more colorful.
So the leaves don't all have to be green,
sometimes they can be purple.
-Purple jeweled leaves. -Yes.
-Into it. -Amazing.
[Dr. Z giggles]
Despite this very early utopia example,
"utopia" is a younger word than you might realize,
only about 500 years old.
We can trace it back to 1516
when an English lawyer named Thomas More wrote a little book
in Latin that described a fictional island
and gave it a name with Greek roots meaning no place:
Utopia.
He describes everything from the size
and layout of the island to its governance structure
and its social norms.
Utopia has no private property.
Its citizens are required to work the land,
and slavery is actively supported.
So clearly More was the kind of nerd who lacked empathy,
but he wasn't trying to imagine a place
where everyone would be happy.
In the book, More actually distinguished his concept
from "eutopia."
It sounds the same, but it has an extra letter
that changes the Greek translation to "good place."
Over time, we dropped that E and realized some harsh truths
about perfect societies.
Political scientist Lyman Sargent wrote
that it's impossible to make a society
that's perfect for everyone
because people aren't homogenous
and we all want different things.
And then fascist regimes
and eugenics movements attempted
to forcibly shape their ideal societies
at the expense of others,
giving utopias a bit of an unsavory reputation.
Because of this bad reputation
and the fact that most narratives rely
on the type of conflict that wouldn't exist
in a perfect world,
we don't see many true utopias in fiction.
A society may be presented as one at first,
but you can usually be sure
that some shady secret is about to be uncovered.
My whole generation was traumatized by "The Lottery."
Remember that Shirley Jackson story
where a randomly chosen person gets stoned to death
that they made us read in school?
Yeah, good times.
Perhaps we've always known
that utopias are too good for us mortals,
which could explain why most utopias from folklore,
like the Sumerian Garden, were reserved for Gods.
Perfect divine beings
need a perfect heavenly home after all.
In Chinese mythology,
Mount Penglai is the utopic home base
for the eight sometimes drunken immortals,
a group of Taoist deities
and secular legendary figures throughout China.
This headquarters is found
on one of the five mystical islands in the Bohai Sea
to China's east.
It also featured jewels growing on plants,
but those plants and everything else
on the mountain were pure white.
It was never winter,
and there were rice bowls and wine glasses
that never emptied.
Qin Shi Huang, the first emperor of united China
in 200s BCE searched for Mount Penglai
and its famed elixir of life.
As far as we and every reputable historian know,
he was unsuccessful,
which is a bummer because this utopia seems amazing,
if you ask me.
But that brings up a great point.
We don't have to limit the citizenry of our utopia
to divine beings, though, if we don't want to.
So a place full of immortal beings
with more power than anyone deserves
doesn't sound like a very fun time to me.
So who do you think our utopia should be for?
Who should live there?
Honestly, all-powerful beings
and, like, immortals sounds annoying.
I feel like they're kind of, like, conceited.
I just don't want to deal with it.
And I also think that diversity
makes the world a better place.
And if our utopia is supposed to be a better place,
I want everyone and everything to be included.
So plants, animals, humans, demigods,
human-animal-plant hybrids, I don't care,
just not the basic big-name gods and deities,
I think, is important.
-What do you think though? -I agree, I want diversity.
I want it to be a very inclusive space.
So I think it should be a place
where everyone is allowed to come in.
But we can't have everyone in our utopia,
so should there be some sort of test or a journey
that they have to go on before they can reach this place
in Tiamat's tummy? [chuckles]
I think so, I think it should be selective
but not restrictive.
And if we're trying to make a better, more peaceful place,
something akin to like a hero's journey,
but maybe with a little less loss,
like you don't have to sacrifice something terrible
except maybe like ego
or something that's not gonna help us as much.
(Dr. McT) How about a journey where instead of losing ego
and other things,
you gain knowledge and perspective
and it's a journey of interacting
with lots of people who are not like you
so you can gain empathy?
-Absolutely. -Yay.
And all the people in this utopia,
do they come from the outside world?
(Dr. Z) I think that it's totally fair for new creatures,
new beings, new humans even
to be born or made
or formed in whatever way our utopia sees best,
'cause in my mind, the utopia itself,
our beautiful, brightly colored jeweled island,
is also its own being or entity.
-Ooh. -So if it decides
it wants to make some kind of, like, jeweled bird creature,
I'm not gonna be mad about it.
I also love the idea of this living island
and the deities that oversee it
being able to create something if the need arises.
If you need a creature that can sow the fields or something,
then they can make a big worm creature
that can aerate the ground.
(Dr. Z) I love that, a giant fun worm.
Not a "Dune" one, not a scary one.
-No. -Nice worm.
A very cute worm.
-Yes, cuteness reigns. -Yes.
So we have cute worms and people and any sort of being
that can learn enough empathy to be a good person,
-they can come to our utopia. -Yes.
(Dr. McT) When mythical utopias were meant for mortals,
they were usually eternal resting places
for souls after a life well-lived.
Or if they're from a culture like the Norse or Nahua,
a death well-died.
And these paradises reflected the dreams
of the cultures they came from.
The later Greek myths had Elysium,
the place in Hades's realm for heroes and the virtuous.
Hesiod says of Elysium
that the grain-giving earth bears honey-sweet fruit
flourishing not just once or twice,
but thrice a year!
Norse warriors who died in battle were carried off
to Valhalla by the Valkyries.
And Egyptian souls who passed the feather test were allowed
to start their long journey towards A'aru.
Some of these heavenly destinations are only
for the cream of the crop,
just barely possible for regular people like us to reach.
Like, you can buy a ticket there,
but only on a site with hidden fees
that makes you enter the same information five whole times!
Honestly, we all remember the disaster
with Taylor Swift's Eras Tour.
It might be easier to find the secret to immortality
or a time machine
so I can perish in a Viking raid
than it would be for me to reach utopia as a mortal.
Sometimes people like to tell uplifting stories
about a utopia built by and for humans,
but it's always in the distant past or future
or it's unimaginably far away.
And I know some people don't see this
as a downside like I do,
but they're bound by the laws of nature.
No magic.
For instance, Russian folklore has tales
of the Oponskoye Kingdom,
a distant land where peasants live worry-free
under a just czar.
Call me spoiled,
but I'd want a utopia that has more pizazz than that.
(Dr. Z) And of course, we have to deal
with the Sargent problem.
How can we possibly make a world perfect for everyone
when they all have different preferences?
To the Greeks, for example,
paradise was a place free from hard labor,
where, as Homer writes,
"men lead an easier life than anywhere else in the world."
However, to the Vikings,
who prized their drinking horn as much as their battle ax,
Valhalla with its war drills
and bottomless mead would seem like a more perfect world.
So we spent this whole season picking deities
for the perfect pantheon to oversee our utopia.
And I think it's time to figure out
what their roles will be.
How will they actually help our utopia?
Maybe starting with some leadership?
We don't want anarchy in our utopia.
Of course not, and I do think Tiamat brings
that matriarchal energy we're looking for,
and I think we've unintentionally
or intentionally structured our utopia
with more strong matriarchal energies
in terms of leadership.
And I know I brought up the Morrigan,
which seems like a weird choice
because she's a trifold goddess,
can be three or one,
usually associated with war and death and destruction,
but I think there's something so beautiful
about including a trifold goddess
who often also represents Maiden/Mother/Crone
and this idea of longevity
and being able to sort of predict death.
And I think that even though we're in utopia
and we might have some mortals
and some immortals being reminded that,
like, time is short
and that we have to consider
that some people don't get to go to the utopia,
something maybe Morrigan can help us with.
Yes, I like having the Morrigan here
as this threefold character
'cause I think she/they will be really good at mediation.
So the other leader character
that I think we can have in this world is Hippolyta.
She's a mortal, she's an Amazon from Greek mythology,
and she led the Amazon.
So if she's one of the leaders of this utopia,
everyone is going to know they're safe
from any sort of outside threats.
They're going to have this kind of triumvirate
of strong women deities who can lead with peace.
(Dr. Z) I love that.
And I think it sounds like a good little trio.
Little matriarchal trio.
Okay, so we have a good governance structure--
-Yeah. -For our utopia,
way better than Thomas More's governance structure.
Uh, yes.
And now let's talk about the resources.
Like, what do people have access to on this island?
I think it's really important to consider food.
-Yes. -Right?
So one of the reasons I picked Idunn as my pantheon choice
was that she, in Norse mythology,
looks over the apple orchards
that keep the Norse gods young and beautiful and immortal.
So with her orchards, with Idunn's orchards,
everyone can be healthy,
they can be as young as they want.
Laka, the Hawaiian goddess that I chose,
she can help Idunn with all of these agricultural feats,
and she can also make sure
that people never go unappreciated,
that everyone is celebrated,
and that we don't forget to acknowledge
what others have done to make this life easier.
(Dr. Z) Absolutely, and every being is acknowledged, right?
We talked about even the plants themselves,
like, having respect for that.
I think choice is so important.
I love this idea of you can choose
to eat the immortal apples if you want,
but if you don't, that's okay too,
like, the island's gonna provide every other thing
that you would need.
(Dr. McT) My goal with including Tefnut in the pantheon
was that she would be able to control moisture
and wind and air so precisely
that she could actually give every individual person
their own personal weather bubble.
Honestly, I love that. I'm a big fan of--
there's gonna be books in this utopia, of course;
knowledge, obviously, you have to get there.
I just love this idea of being able to cozy up
in my little bubble and read a book
and then be like, "Oh, hey, Moiya,
like, let's go to the beach now,"
and then I can do something totally different.
And I think it will help with our tenets of diversity
in making sure everyone feels comfortable
in whatever their space is.
Thank you for bringing up the diversity again
because that is kind of the crux
of Lyman Sargent's problem with utopias,
that there's so much diversity among humans
that you can't possibly create a place
that they would all like.
We've done a pretty good job of making it adaptable
for individual people.
There's individual weather,
there's whatever food you want,
there's whatever creatures you want.
But how do we really make sure that this is a cohesive,
welcoming utopia for everyone?
I think we need to have some people
who are dedicated as being the mediators
and making sure everyone's mental health is taken care of
in whatever capacity,
which is the reason I,
some of the reasons I chose Vishnu and Jesus.
So in my mind, Vishnu, his role,
comes down in avatars in different situations
when the dharma is out of balance.
So he's there to make sure
if anything feels even slightly out of whack,
he can swoop right in
and make sure everything's taken care of,
which is good, particularly with,
we do have essentially, like, two war leaders.
-Yeah, we do. -Yeah.
So I think we need Vishnu
to make sure everything's copacetic.
Vishnu also is big into meditation,
and I think that's a great practice to have in utopia.
And I imagine Jesus in our utopia,
besides the fact with the bread and the wine constantly
because why not?
-Who wouldn't want that? -Exactly.
In my mind, he serves as the counselor
or like the therapist
to remind everyone to be nice to one another,
to kinda be the sounding board, very wise, of course,
you know the New Testament is full
of all these different stories of him giving advice,
so why not put him there
to make sure everyone sort of stays in line,
but peacefully, not aggressively.
(Dr. McT) I love that so much, yes.
Why shouldn't our utopia have therapy and meditation
and other ways of calming your inner turmoil?
That's beautiful.
I can meditate on my jeweled hippogriff.
And I will be sleeping under the ruby leaves
with sapphire grapes
-growing on them. -Why not?
-(Dr. McT) Why not? -[Dr. Z laughs]
[soft music]
You might wonder why we'd need something like therapy
in a perfect world,
but importantly, this is where we deviate
from utopias of yore.
We're not aiming for a world of perfection,
but one of harmony between the very different people
and beings who get to live there.
Discord is a natural part of life for us humans,
and our utopia is a place
where people have the resources they need
to handle what limited conflict there is with grace.
(Dr. McT) So what do you think?
Would you like to live in our utopia?
We certainly hope so.
But just like the utopias of myth,
it's not actually meant to be lived in.
It's meant to be a goal,
the contrast to our reality that makes us question,
is this as good as it gets?
As long as we're imagining and sharing stories,
the answer will always be no, it can get better.
But just like this utopia of ours,
we're going to have to make it happen ourselves.
[soft music]
Accessibility provided by the U.S. Department of Education.
[soft music continues]