When I was growing up in primary school,
and they weren't used to this sort of African face,
or the African features and stuff,
the only sort of people that I saw that looked like me
that I felt that their experience, I could relate to
were the black Americans on TV.
There's a little bit of a dissonance I was facing,
because I'm like, "why are they cool?
"And I'm really not cool."
You know what I'm saying like,
these people on TV live everyone would want to be like them,
would wanna dress like them, talk like them
but when it came to an actual
sort of African diaspora in here,
it's like oh, you've got to do lips,
you know, that you got a big nose.
I think as I got older,
and as that sort of influx of African migration increased,
people sort of got used to it a little bit more,
I have a different set of challenges now.
I'm Guled Mire, and I'm a community advocate
and a Muslim African New Zealander,
born in Somalia,
who arrived in Aotearoa as a child refugee.
We have finally began to address our nation's
mental health crisis,
but the discussions tend to exclude people who look like me,
my friends and my family.
This is Third Culture Minds.
For many third culture kids, belonging means everything.
It means home.
It means thriving.
But how do you hold on to a sense of belonging
when they're so often assaulted by everyday racism?
In this episode,
we unpack the mental health implications of racism,
social exclusion, and representation
for the next generation of black Kiwis
and how they're finding a place to belong in hip hop.
Auckland based Somalian New Zealand rapper, Mo Muse
releases debut album, First Generation LP
which tells the story of a first generation Kiwi
trying to find his place in the world.
Last year, he won the top prize
at the New Zealand Musical Award, pure potential stage.
JessB started writing music when she was 15.
She now performs across New Zealand and Australia
and most recently won an MTV, EMA for Best New Zealand act.
Formerly known as unchained XL, Hugh Ozumba
now goes by the stage name is Mazbou Q.
A UK-born Nigerian kiwi
Mazbou Q's music explores themes of anti-racism,
Pan africanism, cultural identity, faith and consciousness.
He has just gifted the world his EP, Afroternity.
Mo Muse, how many times you have been told,
"you black Somali, go back to where you came from,"
and how do you reconcile all of these things?
Tell me about that. Man,
probably like, kids are pretty mean aye.
(laughs)
And like just growing up, I think it was even crazier
because Auckland is so multicultural that like
you knew how to say the N word in 10 different languages.
You know what I mean,
so like that's a unique thing on its own.
When you come here as a young kid with refugee parents
that grew up in a completely different society,
there's not even that understanding with them.
So like you're feeling like, you know,
you're not really even belonging,
or like feeling like you have that sense of belonging
even with your own family and then to the outside,
you're different too.
And you just got to find role models somewhere else.
And that's where we found hip hop.
I think that's what we all have so strongly in common.
For me growing up, I was very,
I felt very othered because I,
not even in my like immediate family
I kind of had anyone to look at.
And I think that created quite like an identity like
crisis,
I guess you could say especially through my teenage years
when it was like, you kind of like searching for belonging
or whatever it might be.
And it's like, I actually didn't really have anyone
to look at I think like,
as soon as like, I started meeting all the mixed people,
there was like this weird kind of tension,
where it was like, I don't know,
like I never had a conversation about anyone
or with anyone about it,
but like kind of the lighter you are, the better it is.
So like when I met other mixed people it was like,
if they were lighter than me, I'd feel a way about it.
Because like ultimately,
like I wouldn't want it to be like,
white, I guess, was similar as close as possible.
And if they were darker than me then I would feel
better about myself which is just, now looking back,
is just the most crazy messed up kind of mentality
but it just whiteness, being like white being better
had just been instilled into me.
Like now I'm like,
I think the darker the better,
like, you know what I mean?
Like so for me, it's just like,
I look back and I just realised like how much
my thoughts were not only hurtful for my own self
but towards like other people, like other black people,
or other mixed people as well quite like negative.
Since I left high school.
I've kind of been connecting with African people
and it's been life changing.
♪ Too severe, yeah, the team too severe ♪
♪ And we keeping that mood for the rest of the year ♪
♪ Yeah, we keeping that mood, yeah, that mood ♪
♪ And you better make room when we step in the room ♪
There is this interesting theme
consistent amongst both of you, all of your stories, right.
Growing up, I've also grappled with my own sense of identity
and, you know, who I am and what I identify with
growing up in Aotearoa.
How do you think it impacted your mental health?
Just growing up when I sort of got older and like,
I'd talk to girls and stuff and they'd be like,
I love this about you, I love this...
I'm like, "Really, you love that?
"I thought you're supposed to hate it."
When I really think of it I'm like,
I was actually conditioned to hate so much about myself.
I didn't even know that was happening.
When you think about that in the context of
how you've been living, you are like, well, actually,
that's a mental health issue
like the fact that you hate yourself so much,
that you can't receive compliments.
You know what I am saying?
Yeah absolutely, absolutely.
I think that I was really really lucky growing up
that I was playing sport
because I so heavily kind of like found my,
kind of like rooted my identity
in the fact that I was a netball player and I was good
and I was gonna be,
that was what I was going to pursue and like,
that's like a heavily relatable Kiwi thing.
It helped me not feel like I was completely
separate from what a kiwi person was like,
because I was doing like one of the most kiwi,
you know, playing net ball was like, for a girl,
is the most kiwi thing you probably do.
On one hand, I was like really excelling
in the areas that I was doing, was really confident
because of that stuff.
But I think that my struggle was like a lot more unspoken
and a lot more internal and just kind of like,
feeling like undesirable like in high school, you know,
like dudes didn't want to have anything to do with me.
Because I wasn't like a conventional standard of beauty
like by any standard.
Whether that was like, brown or white, I guess,
I never quite felt like I ever was happy with how I was.
Most of our mental health challenges
have been internalised.
So as a kid growing up with parents from
You know, countries that have collapsed,
you've got to be their mentor,
you've got to be their person
navigating their mental health,
so you can't even burden them
with whatever you're going through.
Man, you don't even have time to be thinking about
your self esteem, time to be thinking about no girls,
you ain't got time to be thinking about somebody who does,
like it's deep man.
And you've got to be the mediator for them.
You've got to be their carer,
for example, particularly in the early days
when their English wasn't as good as yours.
♪ You know, this one goes out to all my immigrants man, ♪
♪ You know we always had to be the interpreters ♪
♪ At those parent-teacher interviews ♪
♪ As far as mum was concerned, we were doing well ♪
♪ All kids around my way ♪
♪ Hope they make it through the day. ♪
How real is that cultural stigma
within your own communities when it comes to mental health?
Do you feel like there's something you can talk about,
Mo Muse, in the Somali community?
Not only can you not talk about it,
it's
it's so stigmatised
that people don't even know the have it, man.
Like they do, there's a lot of like immigrant kids
walking around, that are depressed, anxious,
and they don't even know like,
what they're going through like and it's like,
all these you see stories of migrant kids
not doing well in school or like getting into trouble like,
man, if you dig deeper they're either depressed,
there is some sort of psychiatric disorder,
there's some sort of anxiety, so you don't even know
coz it's just not even something that's ever talked about.
A common thing that's also coming across
in this conversation is that representation
is key to positive mental health and well being outcomes.
Would you say that is something
that truly resonates with you?
Oh yeah.
Yeah, it's needed, I mean.
It's needed because forming your identity
is not, for the majority of your life,
it's not a conscious activity.
It happens at a subconscious level.
It happens the way you,
when you meet people,
when you look at stuff in the media,
when you read things, when you absorb information,
that's when it's happening.
So for a lot of people who haven't
sort of crossed the line to be like,
"yep, I'm forming up my identity,"
is still happening subconsciously for them.
So they need to see our faces,
they need to hear our stories, they need to,
I'm talking about the younger people especially,
they need to see us excelling.
They need to see us failing,
and sort of getting up again.
They need to see all that because that's
so paramount for them to form the identity.
Prior to now,
there's been no such thing as like black kiwi culture,
and that like really made me, I don't know,
that like really hit me because I was like,
like the idea that we are essentially
like laying the foundations
for what it means to be black Kiwi,
is like so special.
We are the pioneers and then 20 years time or whatever,
whatever kind of like the, I guess black Kiwi culture is,
we are contributing to it in some way.
How do you reflect this through in your own music?
Always music a way of channelling these perspectives
for you guys, how do you see music
fitting into all of that and being able to tell a story
as well for other young kids, who look like you,
who speak like you that have grown up in this country?
Honestly, like pursuing music is probably the best thing
I ever did for my mental health.
Even though I was doing really well in the sporting arena.
I wasn't necessarily like a happy about my life in general.
Like I didn't feel at peace with who I was.
So music was something that I always enjoyed
and was doing on the side and I kind of annoyed,
it was just like a twist of fate really
that it happened how it did
coz I didn't intend to pursue music.
I kind of fell into it.
I got dropped from the professional team
that I was playing for and so I had time to do it.
And at the same time,
I kind of had had a few opportunities
with a producer called P-Money.
So it kind of just like flipped.
And although it was like super heartbreaking,
it's really, really hard to kind of have something
that was such a pillar of my identity
because I didn't have a cultural identity.
So sport was my identity.
To have that kind of ripped away from me,
was really heartbreaking.
But then it was like the void
was like instantly filled with music.
So I didn't kind of have that much time
where I was like wallowing, wondering what I was gonna do.
And kind of like
it was just kind of being positively reinforced
like very quickly, like it was kind of started doing music
and as soon as I started doing a few gigs
I started meeting like other artists, well you know,
other Africans like some of my first friends,
like African friends, I met at gigs and that to this day,
they're still my best friends.
So it was kind of like this huge like catalyst for my life,
and where my identity really started to,
like, I really started to stand strong
and like, figure out who I was,
and find a place that I felt comfortable with, I guess.
And I like myself.
(laughs)
I love that, I love that, I love that.
And Mazbou, I know that basically,
your African identity and your heritage
is a key feature of your music.
Why is that so important for you?
Music was the way I really connected with my African side.
So, I didn't make concerted efforts to learn my language,
to commune with my people.
Because I didn't like that side of me growing up
and so when I got to adulthood,
and I'm like, "well actually have this culture that I can't
"kind of get rid of, I should embrace it."
And how am I going to embrace that?
Well, why don't I just combine it
with the fact that I love music, and this is beautiful.
So the African music being played in my household
and I realised while in it,
this is an undeniable part of me.
So I realised the importance of uplifting blackness
in my life and also just wherever I go,
you know what I'm saying because our people
in these parts of the world
don't have the platforms that they should have.
They don't have the opportunities that they should have.
And so whenever I can put the spotlight on my people,
I will do it.
♪ So I scream into the silence of the dawn ♪
♪ Feels like it's the only thing that keeps us warm ♪
♪ Even though I know you said that you prefer the cold ♪
♪ I don't ♪
♪ Who's gonna hold my spade? ♪
♪ And bury me deep in a grave ♪
♪ So I take this sin to the gates ♪
♪ And hope my God's gon' take it away ♪
♪ I said "Who's gonna come my way?" ♪
♪ And bury me deep in a grave ♪
♪ I'mma this sin to the gates ♪
♪ And hope my God gon' take it away ♪
♪ Take it away ♪
My passion in music came late because to me,
it was just programmed in my mind
that it was completely unattainable,
both from a religious and a cultural aspect.
And both from a representation aspect
where I didn't see anyone that looked like me in New Zealand
making hip hop or making the music that I like.
So you're crazy, if you're gonna tell me at 18 years old
that I'm trying to rap, get out of here.
And a lot of people say,
"Hey man, your music is very political."
And to that I say, "Man, my existence is political."
You know what I mean like,
you know where I'm from?
Somalia
So if I'm talking about myself, it has to be political,
because that's me, right?
I realised very early in my music journey,
that if I didn't really have anything to say
that would connect to people,
then the music is not gonna hit.
The music is obviously a very vulnerable thing.
And the process of writing your thoughts down,
causes you to introspect,
causes you to reflect on your own life a little bit more
than you might have planned.
When we sort of released music
talking about the migrant experience
or the African experience.
And we talk about our own lives, we kind of self discover,
and to see myself more clearly,
and has been able to sort of let me
more transparently tell that story
for young African kids growing up,
but also the peers around me
who might not have heard this story before.
Just being who we are,
and creating and pushing for space
within, whether it's the music scene
or like New Zealand culture in general,
is like super powerful and I think just being
is like telling half the story.
And so I kind of, I'm definitely like, all for like kind of
kicking open the door and bring in as many people as I can.
And with me,
and I think like stuff like representation and music videos,
and all of that stuff all is contributing,
without necessarily yelling about it,
to kind of like where we're all trying to head
and even though we are all African New Zealanders,
we are all also individuals and we're also different,
we've got different things to add
and different stories to tell.
So it's just as much about being an individual
doing an individual thing
as it is about being a spokesperson for the collective,
say it but open the door and let someone else say this.
On that note, I want to thank you guys all
for your time today and sharing your stories with us.
♪ You better act right when you come around it ♪
♪ Blacklight, We don't need to talk about ♪
♪ The proof's in the power and we proud of it , Aye ♪
♪ Blacklight, We don't need to talk about ♪
♪ Say it three times, get surrounded by it ♪
♪ Blacklight, We don't need to talk about ♪
♪ What you gonna hear about it ♪
♪ Whatchu think you know about it ♪
♪ A young prophet, Mohamed musing on the message ♪
♪ How do you teach so many people not to love the wreckage ♪
♪ In a couple seconds it could run all the way to hellish ♪
♪ Is it haram to hate your killer tell me what you reckon ♪