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- MARK: MY FIRST GUEST IS THE BEST. - SELLING AUTHOR
OF THE FAULT IN OUR STARS
- AND THE BRAND NEW. - TURTLES ALL THE WAY DOWN.
HERE IS JOHN GREEN.
SO LET'S TALK ABOUT
THE BOOK TO START OFF.
JOHN: SURE.
MARK: TURTLES ALL THE WAY DOWN
AND THE PROTAGONIST
IS A GIRL NAMED AZA.
SHE'S 16 YEARS OLD.
SO SHE'S IN HIGH SCHOOL GETTING
READY TO THINK ABOUT COLLEGE
AND IN MANY WAYS
SHE'S A SMART, COOL KID.
SHE'S GOT SOME FRIENDS,
BUT SHE ALSO HAS SOMETHING
IN WHICH SHE CANNOT CONTROL
MANY OF THE
THOUGHTS THAT GO INTO HER BRAIN.
JOHN: YEAH.
MARK: SPECIFICALLY,
SHE THINKS
THAT SHE HAS A FATAL
BACTERIAL INFECTION
OR THAT SHE'S ABOUT TO GET ONE.
THAT'S HER OBSESSION.
JOHN: YEAH.
SO.
- MARK: IT'S FUNNY. - AND ALSO THE MOST TRAGIC THING.
JOHN: YEAH,
IT'S FUNNY UNLESS YOU PERSONALLY
HAVE YOUR THOUGHTS HIJACKED
FOR MONTHS OR YEARS AT A TIME
AND THEN IT'S NOT SO FUNNY
BECAUSE IF YOU CAN'T CHOOSE
WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT
OVER A LONG PERIOD OF TIME,
THAT REALLY SORT OF DESTABILIZES
WHAT EXACTLY PEOPLE MEAN
WHEN THEY TALK ABOUT YOU.
LIKE IF YOU'RE NOT
RESPONSIBLE FOR
OR BEING ABLE TO
CHOOSE YOUR THOUGHTS,
THEN LIKE ARE YOU NOT POSSIBLY A
PASSENGER IN THIS CONSCIOUSNESS
- THAT YOU ARE STUCK INSIDE OF, - WHICH IS LIKE...
FOR ME AT LEAST
SOMEWHAT TERRIFYING.
MARK: SHE HAS...
THE NAME FOR IT IS OCD.
JOHN: YEAH.
MARK: I MEAN SHE HAS
THE OBSESSIONS,
WHICH IS THIS IDEA
THAT THERE'S THIS FATAL
OR AT ANY MOMENT FATAL
BACTERIA THAT COULD ENTER HER
AND SHE HAS THE COMPULSION.
- JOHN: AND I DON'T WANT. - TO INTERRUPT YOU,
BUT THE THING ABOUT C. DIFF
IS THAT ITS NOT LIKE IT COULD
AT ANY MOMENT INTERRUPT YOU.
MARK: IT COULDN'T AT ALL.
JOHN: IT'S ALREADY
INSIDE OF YOU.
[LAUGHS]
SO LIKE, THERE'S THAT
TO DEAL WITH.
- MARK: THERE IS. - THERE IS.
JOHN: YEAH.
MARK: SO YOU'RE...
PATIENCE.
JOHN: OK.
- SORRY, I DON'T WANT. - TO INTERRUPT YOU.
- IT'S JUST YOU MADE IT OUT. - TO BE LIKE,
"OH, SHE'S BEING SO IRRATIONAL,"
AND SHE IS,
LIKE HER RESPONSE TO THE FACT...
MARK: EVERYBODY HAS IT.
- JOHN: THAT SHE IS A SKIN-ENCASED. - BACTERIAL COLONY
- IS SOMEWHAT IRRATIONAL, - BUT ON THE OTHER HAND LIKE I...
IT'S WEIRD THAT HALF OF THE
CELLS INSIDE OF YOUR BODY
ARE NOT YOU.
MARK: ABSOLUTELY.
JOHN: YEAH.
MARK: LET'S JUST GET IT
OUT ON THE TABLE.
JOHN: YEAH.
- MARK: THE BOOK. - MEANT A LOT TO ME.
JOHN: THANKS, MAN.
MARK: I'VE LOVED ALL YOUR BOOKS,
BUT I, I HAVE OCD.
I BELIEVE YOU HAVE OCD, AS WELL.
JOHN: YEAH, I DO.
- MARK: I DON'T TALK ABOUT IT. - UNLESS I'M ON TV.
[LAUGHTER]
JOHN: YEAH, ME NEITHER.
MARK: YEAH.
BUT ONE MAN OR WOMAN'S
OCD OBSESSION
IS NOT ANOTHER MAN
OR WOMAN'S.
SO YOU COULD, I GET IT.
C. DIFF, A BACTERIA THAT COULD
CAUSE DEATH THAT'S IN ALL OF US,
THAT... I AM COOL WITH THAT.
BUT RADON IN MY HOUSE,
THAT'S ANOTHER STORY ENTIRELY.
IF YOU WANT TO GO.
JOHN: I'M WELL AWARE OF THE
RADON IN YOUR HOUSE ISSUE.
- YOU DON'T NEED. - TO GO INTO IT AGAIN
BECAUSE I, I KNOW MORE ABOUT IT
- THAN ANYONE. - OTHER THAN YOUR SPOUSE.
[LAUGHER]
- MARK: DO YOU KNOW MORE THAN THE. - GUY AT THE HOTLINE EMERGENCY
WHO I CALL EVERY FEW MONTHS?
- JOHN: THE THING... ONE OF THE. - THINGS ABOUT OCD IS THAT...
AND LIKE I MAKE FUN OF IT, TOO.
AND LIKE, THIS IS SOMETHING
THAT WE HAVE TOGETHER
AND THAT WE'VE MADE FUN
OF TOGETHER FOR 15 YEARS.
- MARK: THE WHOLE BASIS. - OF OUR FRIENDSHIP, I THINK.
- JOHN: IT IS SORT OF THE. - WHOLE BASIS OF OUR FRIENDSHIP.
- I MEAN CERTAINLY THE. - INITIAL POINT OF CONNECTION
WITH MEETING SOMEBODY ELSE
WHO GETS THEIR THOUGHTS HIJACKED
FOR LONG PERIODS OF TIME
AND YOU FEEL
LESS ALONE IN THAT
- AND THAT'S REALLY WHY. - I WROTE THE BOOK.
LIKE WAS BECAUSE I WANTED TO,
I WANTED TO FEEL LESS ALONE
- AND THEN AND ALSO. - I WANTED OTHER PEOPLE
- TO MAYBE FEEL THAT WAY, - BUT...
MARK: BUT IS C. DIFF YOUR...
ONE OF YOUR OBSESSIONS?
JOHN: NO.
- MARK: BECAUSE YOU COULD. - NEVER WRITE ABOUT YOURS.
IT WOULD DRIVE YOU TO GO CRAZY.
JOHN: YEAH, YOU'RE RIGHT.
- YOU CAN'T, I CAN'T. - WRITE ABOUT MINE.
THEY'RE TOO CLOSE TO ME.
SO, YOU KNOW, WHEN I SET OUT
TO WRITE THE NOVEL
- I KNEW THAT I WAS. - GOING TO BE WRITING A NOVEL.
I WANTED TO BE KIND OF
AGGRESSIVELY FICTIONAL.
I WANTED IT TO BE
VERY OBVIOUSLY NOT REAL,
BOTH TO ME
AND TO THE READER
AND I... AS PART OF THAT I KNOW
THAT I COULDN'T...
I CAN'T WRITE DIRECTLY,
I CAN'T EVEN... TO BE HONEST,
I CAN'T EVEN TALK DIRECTLY.
- LIKE I'M VERY IMPRESSED WITH. - YOUR ABILITY TO TALK ABOUT
THE RADON BECAUSE I CAN'T...
- MARK: I'M GOING THROUGH SOME. - ISSUES IN MY HEAD AT THE MOMENT.
JOHN: I CAN'T TALK DIRECTLY
ABOUT MY OBSESSIVE THOUGHT
SPIRALS BECAUSE IT
FEELS TOO DANGEROUS.
IT FEELS... IT JUST...
- YEAH. - IT FEELS DANGEROUS.
MARK: AND IT'S ALSO WORTH NOTING
THAT RADON IS A REAL PROBLEM.
- JOHN: YEAH. - NO, THAT'S THE THING.
ONE OF THE EMBARRASSMENTS FOR
ME OF MY OBSESSIONAL THINKING
IS THAT IN A WAY
I'M TRIVIALIZING REAL PROBLEMS
THAT REAL PEOPLE GO THROUGH.
- AND THAT'S SOMETHING THAT. - AZA STRUGGLES WITH AS WELL.
C. DIFF IS ALSO A REAL PROBLEM
- AND PEOPLE WHO LIVE. - WITH C. DIFF INFECTIONS,
YOU KNOW CAN HAVE
CHRONIC HEALTH PROBLEMS
THAT ARE VERY SERIOUS AND VERY
DIFFICULT AND IN A WAY,
LIKE HER OBSESSIVE
WORRY ABOUT THIS STUFF
FEELS AS IF SHE'S TRIVIALIZING
OTHER PEOPLE'S EXPERIENCE.
- THAT SAID, LIKE WHEN YOU'RE. - INSIDE OF THAT THOUGHT SPIRAL
THERE'S LITERALLY,
FOR ME AT LEAST,
NOTHING THAT
YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT.
- LIKE IT IS NOT SOMETHING. - THAT YOU CHOOSE
OR THAT ANYONE WOULD CHOOSE.
MARK: ONE OF THE CLASSIC
ONES IS, "I HAVE AIDS."
JOHN: RIGHT.
MARK: WHEN YOU DON'T HAVE AIDS.
BUT AIDS IS A TRAGEDY
THAT HAS KILLED
MANY, MANY, MANY, MANY PEOPLE
AND YET YOU'RE NOT
TRYING TO TRIVIALIZE IT.
YOU THINK YOU DO
IN THAT OCD WAY.
JOHN: RIGHT AND THERE'S A LOT OF
LIKE SEXUAL OBSESSIONS
THAT ARE SIMILAR THAT
OR, YOU KNOW...
AND IT IS A VERY...
ONE OF THE THINGS
- THAT MAKES IT A DIFFICULT THING. - TO LIVE WITH
- IS THAT IT IS A. - DIFFICULT THING TO TALK ABOUT
BECAUSE IT IS FOR ME,
LIKE I HAVE WORKED REALLY
HARD NOT TO FEEL STIGMATIZED
OR EMBARRASSED ABOUT THE
BRAIN DISORDER THAT I HAVE,
BUT I STILL DO.
- I STILL FEEL. - EMBARRASSED ABOUT IT.
- I STILL FEEL A LITTLE. - ASHAMED ABOUT IT
AND IN THE END LIKE I FELT...
INITIALLY, I DIDN'T WANT
TO WRITE THIS BOOK.
- I WANTED TO WRITE A BUNCH. - OF DIFFERENT BOOKS
- AND THEY KEPT NOT WORKING AND. - NOT WORKING AND NOT WORKING
- AND I THINK ONE OF. - THE MAIN REASONS FOR THAT
IS THAT THIS WAS
THE ONLY TRUE STORY
- THAT I COULD TELL RIGHT NOW, - IF THAT MAKES ANY SENSE.
THIS WAS THE ONLY STORY THAT
FELT REAL TO ME IN THAT TIME
- BECAUSE FOR A LOT OF THE PERIOD. - OF WRITING THE BOOK
I WAS PRETTY SICK
OR EMERGING OUT OF ONE
OF THE WORST PERIODS
OF IT THAT I'VE HAD.
MARK: FROM A WRITING STANDPOINT,
ONE OF THE MOST BRILLIANT
THINGS ABOUT IT,
WHICH I JUST CAN'T BELIEVE
YOU PULLED IT OFF,
IS THAT WRITING ABOUT IT FROM A
CHARACTER'S PERSPECTIVE WHO IS...
THE THING WITH OCD IS YOU
COULD BE TALKING TO ME
AND HAVING A CONVERSATION,
BUT AT THE SAME TIME YOU'RE
HAVING A TOTALLY DIFFERENT
- SET OF THOUGHTS GOING ON. - THAT ARE YOUR OBSESSIONS.
THAT WOULD BE... AND THERE ARE
MOMENTS IN THE BOOK
WHERE THAT IS GOING ON,
BUT OVERALL THAT
WOULD DRIVE THE READER NUTS
IF EVERY SINGLE PAGE WERE...
BUT SOMEHOW YOU PULLED IT OFF
WHERE IT WAS FULLY BELIEVABLE
THAT SHE HAS... THAT SHE SUFFERS
FROM WHAT SHE SUFFERS
FROM WITHOUT MAKING
IT UNREADABLE.
JOHN: YEAH.
- I MEAN THAT WAS SOMETHING. - I THOUGHT A LOT ABOUT
LIKE TO WHAT EXTENT DO
YOU MAKE THIS A DIFFICULT...
LIKE PHYSICALLY DIFFICULT BOOK
TO READ AND LIKE I APPRECIATE IT
IF SOMEONE IS WILLING TO SPEND
8 OR 10 HOURS WITH MY STORY
AND I DON'T WANT TO
BE MEAN TO THEM.
LIKE I DON'T WANT TO...
I WANT TO TRY TO...
I DESPERATELY FOR
PERSONAL REASONS
AND ALSO FOR OTHER REASONS,
I DESPERATELY WANTED
TO TRY TO FIND SOME KIND OF FORM
OR EXPRESSION FOR THIS WAY OF
THINKING FOR WHAT IT FEELS LIKE
TO HAVE THE NOTION OF YOURSELF
SO UNDERMINED AS IF ITS
ALL BUILT UPON SAND,
BUT AT THE SAME TIME I WANTED IT
TO BE A FUN, LIKE A FUN...
AS FUN A BOOK AS YOU CAN
HAVE WHEN IT'S ABOUT THAT.
MARK: WELL, IT IS.
IT IS ACTUALLY A FUN BOOK, BUT
IS THERE SOMETHING ALSO THAT...
YOU MENTIONED THIS IDEA ALSO
WHEN WE FIRST STARTED TALKING
ABOUT... IF THESE THOUGHTS
AREN'T MINE, THEN AM I REAL?
BUT ISN'T THAT IN SOME WAYS
THE ETERNAL QUESTION THAT
CERTAINLY TEENAGERS ASK,
WHO AM I?
WHAT AM I?
JOHN: YEAH AND IS THERE
A ME THAT EXISTS
INDEPENDENT OF CIRCUMSTANCES.
AM I NOTHING, BUT A RESPONSE
TO THE CIRCUMSTANCES
THAT I'VE ENCOUNTERED?
AM I THE SAME EXACT PERSON
THAT ANYBODY ELSE
WHO WENT THROUGH
MY LIFE WOULD BE?
AND MAYBE THAT IS A QUESTION
PRIMARILY OF ADOLESCENCE,
BUT IT IS ONE IN MIDDLE AGE I
FIND MYSELF ASKING QUITE A LOT.
ULTIMATELY AM I JUST DOING
EXACTLY WHAT I WOULD BE DOING
IF I WEREN'T THE SO-CALLED
CAPTAIN OF MY CONSCIOUSNESS.
AM I MORE OF A SORT OF PRISONER
INSIDE OF THIS SELF
OR AM I THE ACTOR, THE
PROTAGONIST SOMEHOW OF MYSELF?
- I STILL DON'T HAVE A GOOD ANSWER. - FOR THAT ONE.
- MARK: YEAH, WE'RE NOT GOING. - TO SETTLE IT ON THIS EPISODE.
JOHN: PROBABLY NOT.
[LAUGHTER]
I MEAN MAYBE.
- MARK: HAVE YOU SEEN. - THE MOVIE SLIDING DOORS?
[LAUGHTER]
THAT'S A GOOD SEGWAY.
- LET'S TALK ABOUT THE TITLE, - THE TITLE OF THE BOOK.
JOHN: YEAH.
MARK: TURTLES ALL THE WAY DOWN.
IT'S NOT A SPOILER,
IT'S A REAL THING.
IT'S THIS IDEA THAT THE EARTH
IS NOT ROUND,
THAT IT'S FLAT AND THAT IT RESTS
UPON THE BACK OF A TURTLE
WHICH IS ON TOP OF ANOTHER
TURTLE ON TOP OF ANOTHER TURTLE
- ON TOP OF ANOTHER TURTLE. - ALL THE WAY DOWN.
WHAT DOES THAT,
WHERE DOES THAT COME FROM?
JOHN: THE STORY GOES THAT THIS
LECTURER GIVES A LONG LECTURE
ABOUT HOW... THE HISTORY
OF THE EARTH AND THEN THIS...
AT THE END OF IT THIS OLD WOMAN
RAISES HER HAND AND SAY'S,
"THAT'S ALL VERY WELL AND GOOD,
"BUT THE TRUTH IS THAT THE"
EARTH IS A FLAT PLANE
- RESTING ON THE BACK. - "OF A GIANT TORTOISE,"
AND THE LECTURER THINKING
HIMSELF VERY SMART SAYS,
"WELL, WHAT IS THAT
TURTLE STANDING ON,"
AND THEN THE WOMAN SAYS,
- "YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND. - IT'S TURTLES ALL THE WAY DOWN,"
AND IT'S VERY HELPFUL TO ME
WHEN YOU THINK RECURSIVELY,
WHEN YOU THINK IN SPIRALS
OR IN LOOPS.
IN A WAY WHEN I FIRST HEARD THE
TURTLES ALL THE WAY DOWN STORY,
IT ALMOST FELT LIKE, ALMOST LIKE
A SPIRITUAL REVELATION OF,
"OH MY GOD,"
ITS TRUE OBVIOUSLY THAT
THE WORLD IS YOU KNOW
X-BILLION OF YEARS OLD
AND LIFE EVOLVED
ON IT VERY SLOWLY
AND IT BECAME MORE COMPLEX,
- IT CRAWLED OUT OF THE OCEANS, - WHATEVER, WHATEVER,
BUT IT IS ALSO TRUE THE EARTH
- IS WHATEVER THE STORIES. - WE TELL ABOUT IT.
- LIKE THE WORLD IS THE STORIES. - THAT WE TELL
AND SO MUCH OF MY THINKING
WAS TRYING TO GET
TO SOME BOTTOM TURTLE AND
THERE IS NOT BOTTOM TURTLE.
IT IS TURTLES ALL THE WAY DOWN.
MARK: ALL THE DAMN WAY.
JOHN: AND SO NOW IT
DOESN'T REALLY HELP
EXCEPT THAT IT HELPS GIVE LIKE
FORMER EXPRESSION
TO MY THINKING PROBLEM.
LIKE NOW WHEN I'M HAVING
THAT THINKING PROBLEM,
I CAN AT LEAST SAY TO MYSELF,
"HOLD UP, GREEN.
"YOU'RE LOOKING FOR"
THE BOTTOM TURTLE.
"THERE IS NO BOTTOM TURTLE.
IT'S TURTLES ALL THE WAY DOWN."
- MARK: SO HOW DO YOU, - AFTER YOU'VE DONE THAT,
HOW DO YOU GET OUT?
OBVIOUSLY, IT'S NOT EASY.
- JOHN: YEAH, I MEAN THE WEIRD. - THING ABOUT A SPIRAL RIGHT,
- LIKE AZA TALKS ABOUT. - THIS IN THE BOOK
IS THAT IF YOU FOLLOW IT
INWARDS, IT DOESN'T EVER END.
IT JUST GETS TIGHTER AND TIGHTER
AND TIGHTER FOREVER.
LIKE IT GETS INFINITELY TIGHTER
AND I REMEMBER,
TRYING TO EXPRESS
THIS TO MY PSYCHOLOGIST
AND MY PSYCHOLOGIST SAID,
- "YOU REALIZE THAT IF YOU." - JUST TURN AROUND,
THE SPIRAL ALSO GOES
"INFINITELY OUTWARD,"
AND I WAS LIKE, "OH, GOD."
THAT'S VERY METAPHORICALLY
"RESONANT, BUT IT'S NOT TRUE."
WE ALL KNOW SPIRALS
GO IN ONE DIRECTION:
TIGHTER AND TIGHTER
AND TIGHTER
- UNTIL YOU DIE INSIDE. - OF THE PRISON OF YOURSELF.
MARK: AND THEN, AND THEN
SHE SAID, "TIMES UP."
JOHN: YEAH AND THEN SHE SAYS,
"THAT'S A GREAT SESSION.
- "I THINK WE'RE CLOSE." - TO A BREAK THROUGH,
BUT NEXT WEEK WE'RE GOING TO
"GET THERE FOR SURE."
SHE'S GREAT ACTUALLY.
MARK: WELL,
THE BOOK IS WONDERFUL.
JOHN: THANK YOU.
- MARK: AND THANKS FOR WRITING. - JOHN GREEN EVERYONE.
[APPLAUSE]