This book, I feel, speaks perfectly
to what we are subconsciously dealing with
in every single debate, the likeability trap.
How do you become likeable as a candidate,
whilst, at the same time, still being yourself as a person?
Why is that so difficult to achieve?
It's difficult to achieve across the board
because likeability is so wildly subjective.
But it's particularly challenging for women.
If you are a woman who strives to lead,
you are told one of two things.
You're either told you're too much, too assertive,
too aggressive, you need to tone it down.
Or you're told you're not enough,
you don't take up enough space, you don't take up enough oxygen,
-you don't have what it takes to lead. -Right.
So women are told they can either be likeable
or they can be a leader, but there's almost no way
for them to be both.
And when you talk about women candidates,
what makes that so complicated
is that voters will vote for a man candidate
even if they don't like him,
-so long as they think he's competent. -Right.
For women candidates, they have to clear both hurdles.
Voters have to like them
and they have to believe that they're competent.
It's interesting, because, in this race specifically,
a lot of media coverage has been geared
towards discussing Elizabeth Warren's likeability.
You know? Whereas people before,
like, let's say when Trump was running, they-they said,
"Well, you know, I don't like him,
but I think he can get the job done."
And that was a common thread that went through the election.
Um, in the book,
you say something that's really interesting.
-You talk about Hillary Clinton in particular, -Mm-hmm.
...where, you know, you talk about something
that I didn't really pay attention to, and that was,
when she was just doing it for the country.
She was secretary of state.
-When she was secretary of state, people liked her. -Mm.
Independents liked her, Republicans liked her,
Democrats liked her.
And then, immediately when she ran,
people perceived it as now she was doing it for herself,
and her likeability dropped.
Why do you think that is?
Well, with men, we presume that it's in men's nature
to want power and to grab for power.
When women do that, it violates this expectation we have
of women that they are communal, that they'll act communal.
I mean, there's an irony in that, right?
Which is, most women run for office
because they want to do something
-that benefits their community at large. -Mm-hmm.
But they're seen as... as it being a power grab, right?
Because it's their name at the top of the ticket,
and so it's seen as this singular act.
And so, just the act of saying, "I am a woman, and I believe
that I am worthy of power,"
immediately makes a woman less likeable.
Chris Quinn, who'd run for the mayor of New York, said to me,
"The day you declare, you have a new negative."
That's an interesting place
to be in, um, as a woman who is a candidate,
because you're in a race
where people are looking at your likeability,
but then they're also locking at your-your track record,
which, as you've seen, you know,
people spoke about on the debate tonight.
Amy Klobuchar said, "Look, I think
"there is a double standard for how much
you have to have achieved as a woman to be on the stage."
Whereas the men can just come in with like,
"I have a few good ideas,
and this is why I think I should be here."
When you look at the trap,
how do you think people can escape the trap?
How-how can a woman be likeable if that is something
that someone needs to strive towards,
but then still achieve or be the best
or be the leader, etcetera?
You are doing such a good job
of articulating how complicated this is.
And women have been given two paths, right?
We have either been told
we can do this gender-correcting performance
where we, like, sit in our chairs and are cautious
about how we use our hands and how we use our voice,
-or we can just let it go. -Mm-hmm.
We can just choose not to care about likeability.
I don't think either of those paths work, right?
Because if you do the first one,
then you put the responsibility of likeability back on women.
-Mm-hmm. -If you do the later, you don't...
you're not being honest about how important
likeability really is.
And what I think we need to do is push back on likeability
as what it really is-- a cover for bias--
and say, "Enough with it" once and for all.
(cheers and applause)
It's a powerful stand to make.
And you make a good case for it in the book.
Thank you so much for joining us on the show.
A really fascinating look into the world of likeability.
The Likeability Trap is available now.
Alicia Menendez, everybody.