extensive that secretive genetic surveillance program.
Jordan welcome to the program.
>> Thank you for having me.
So
let's start with how.
>> You came or I should say maybe William Thompson, a
professor emeritus of criminology at you cow Irvine
came to be aware of this secretive
genetic surveillance program.
>> Yes, professor Thompson has been sort of a DNA wonk for
decades, and so IM on the urban community and beyond, and so
when things are kind of going on people have questions they
often come to him and so one day he was outside his house
and a neighbor was also a professor at U C or a van.
I'm a person with the story about how she you know what
sometimes Walker dog off the leash which is technically
illegal in Orange County in Irvine. And she got for it and
she thought she was going to go to the courthouse, hey this
$100 fee for the first offense and now be that when she got
down to the courthouse. It basically was world her that
they were going to increase the charge to a higher level
misdemeanor unless she agreed to give up her DNA
and so we're talking about a full genetic profile here that
they did so they would have to swap dirty it was only way she
could get it and you know, and Thompson and another professor
Dan Simon cool kind of began hearing the stories from
students as well, what's not surprising that they might end
up and you know, so with the law on minor offenses,
occasionally so more and more people are coming in John
saying, hey, you know they won't get rid of this case
unless I get the DNA and back to threatening to increase the
charge if I if I don't do that.
>> So there's there's really 3 elements to this that are are
sort of surprising.
>> That.
>> The prosecutors would insist upon a genetic sample.
In for misdemeanors be that they would threaten to increase
the charges if they didn't get this sample
and see that they have something that they would use
this stuff for that they have I mean this is really basically
what this story is about all 3 of these things our
I guess or at the very least you know if if someone wants to
be extremely generous. I don't but I'm I will allow for that
that these are very very uncommon and a typical and
perhaps outside of the realm of legal
>> yeah, I mean it's the only database of its kind run by a
prosecutor that anybody knows. The police departments that had
their own DNA databases in the past things like left behind
DNA May and various notes are samples that they come across,
but this is like here it is a very fast. There are
approximately what we don't know right now but their last
time, but the subject there are about 200,001 1000 people in
there. And again like it's important to understand that if
you go to crimes and you find DNA there's a lot or saliva and
that's collected and tested its tested against various parts of
the genome that don't include proteins. They're called junk
DNA, they have function, but they don't include protein so
they don't give away a lot of information private information
about the person the CNN.
When you take a cheek swab which is what they're doing
here. You've got the entire sequence. So you get to know a
lot about people's medical history. It has these for
disease all kinds of things that I think rightly people
should want to kind of protect. And so here that's what they're
taking and then predicated this you know taking this predicated
on on getting rid of a criminal case. I think the part of that
it's also important is you know we've had DNA databases for a
very long time. You know, and you can still however you want
to about them, but they're generally regulated very highly
by states. They have very strict sort of quality
assurance parameters. They're usually mandated only for
people who have been accused of very serious crimes of
convicted of very serious crimes. And even in those
cases. There is generally a way for somebody to get their
profile out of the database in certain circumstances that they
are charged with murder and you're acquitted. Then your DNA
profile can get out of that database in Orange County.
Visit from the lowest level things like watch it walking
your dog, up least minor drug possession it could be anything
you know to driving without a seat belt. And in Orange County
you have no there's no mechanism for a person to ever
have their DNA removed from the database, regardless of whether
they're actually convicted of the crime.
>> That there's a lot and they're down packing a lot of
it is I find stunning. But let's let's go back a little
bit to give people cers of a broader context. Let's talk
about codis what what is codis and images so that we get a
sense of of of what has existed out there in the way that it's
been used and what has been sanctioned.
Under our. You know, I guess our our criminal procedures in
criminal law.
>> So yeah, it sure could this is the combined DNA index
system it's run by the FBI. And it basically links up
statewide databases again that are created by statute that are
highly regulated and quality assurance parameters Parkway
but then them so when you swab your your DNA it's being run
against the entire genome the entire sequence.
The way that friends that profiling work is a test at
very specific what are called low side and the ones that are
accepted and that are commonly and uniformly tested or are a
long strands that don't encroach in coat proteins they
don't contain lots of private for example medical information
about us.
Some of that they do they do have function in the Jena but
they just don't contain that much rich personal identifying
information.
>> So in other words, it's not the it's not the sample is the
process that the sample is exposed to that is that okay,
so it's not just the fact that they swab it in your cheek,
it's that they are specifically assessing
things beyond what they would need even to just simply
identify you.
>> Certainly certainly and yes, absolutely absolutely they
don't you know, I guess I suppose, I know that the plane
and get there even if they're going to swab your cheek,
I suppose they could develop only have the low side that we
use in forensic samples which of those left behind the crime
scenes and not the entire sequence that has you know all
these things about propensity for disease are or are those
kind of things that you can find out as they say it's sort
of a treasure trove of information about a specific
>> I was going to say like you know when I start off by saying
individual.
there's you know a B and C things that are wrong with this
but we're starting to get into D e e here too because they're
taking. If you're going to make an analogy between the DNA and
a fingerprint.
It sounds sort of like what's happening. In Orange County is
that they're not just taking a fingerprint.
They're taking
maybe not even just the hand they're taking you know the
torso and and they're they're examining
things that they don't even need to examine if it's a
question of just simply identifying that's correct.
And that's right absolutely and so OK, let's just start there
what's their justification for taking that much information as
opposed to
I'm not and I don't want to sound like I'm justifying the
mechanism in which they take this information in the first
place or that they should take any information but why are
they taking so much more information than then
the the the feds and police agencies and then have required
to identify.
You know potential criminal ideas in the past.
>> Well, I mean, and to be fair when you when you are subject
to giving your DNA say in a felony case you connected of
Maria ressa murder charge of murder. And you have to give a
DNA sample that are taking your full sample. At that point that
the crime scene evidence. I mean, but I think it's still
a valid point which is why would you need to collect the
entire genome verses the specific portions of it which
we traditionally look at when we're looking at times and
evidence that is a very good question. Now as it applies to
Orange County.
Anybody's guess because they basically refused to talk about
this, you know they've been very secretive about it.
They know, researchers have not been open kind of concerned
about how the demographic breakdown might look you know
who is in this database. How many white men how many
white women and people of color, you know who is in here
they refused to give up any of that information I mean if