J: So, I'm going to teach you how to say 'hello lovely people,'
J: which is how I start my videos. A: OK... OK.
J: So you go "Hello,"
J: and then "lovely" A: "Lovely"?
J: "People" A: "People..."
A: Did I do it? J: Yes.
A: Hello... J: Hello, lovely people
A: I messed up! There's too much pressure! OK.
J: Hello, lovely people.
A: I did it! Both: Yay!
J: I am joined by the amazing Ash Hardell
who has been one of my faves for a while
A: Ohh, likewise!
J: So I'm fangirling a bit inside A: I'm fanpersoning
A: A lot! It's mutual.
J: Also, you have some of the best eyebrows I've ever seen.
A: I don't do anything to 'em!
J: And we're gonna talk today about
people not being too afraid to talk to us.
J: People are so afraid that they'll say the wrong things
about disabilities, deafness,
and trans issues
that they just don't say anything
A: It's an issue J: And so we're gonna try and help
J: And be like, "Here's something you could say instead, maybe?"
A: Yeah!
A: And hopefully build your confidence a little bit J: Yes.
And make it seem less scary to talk to us, 'cause I really like questions
A: Even if there're some faux pas in the questions.
A: I like curiosity, I like questions, and I
I like those way more than, like, uncomfortable avoidance
A: That's what makes me uncomfortable.
I'd rather have you ask your awkward question, than just--
I'm not silly, I can pick up on when you're like
'Ooo, you freak me out, I'm just gonna walk away!'
Also! I don't know everything
about deafness and disability, so I might accidentally,
like, make a mistake in this video
J: No, and I know like this--everything I know about trans issues comes from your videos.
J: And Chase A: Yeah, and if you mess up, I'm gonna expose you
and ruin your YouTube career, but...
I'm just kidding! No!
J: Thanks hun, thanks!
A: We're gonna extend each other some compassion J: Yes
A: and we've like set that as an expectation before entering this conversation.
J: Yes.
J: I would rather someone had really good intentions
and wanted to say something nice to me, but accidentally used some bad words
Than if they are using incredibly, wonderfully PC language,
and they're just being a bit of a dick.
A: Yes, I... Have you ever heard of...there's political correctness and then there's emotional correctness.
J: Oo, no.
A: So, emotional correctness is kind of what you're just explaining.
It's just like having good intentions and like
tapping into the other person's humanity.
A: So, yeah, I also value emotional correctness over like
some asshole being 'politically correct'
J: The thing that comes up for me a lot is...it happens a lot with older people.
A: OK. J: The way that I dress is very old fashioned,
A: Sure! J: which older people like, a lot.
A: OK. J: So they love to come over and talk to me about it...
It's really heartbreaking when old men come over and they're like,
"You look just like my wife did."
A: Oohh, no!
J: "I lost her..." "Oh, sir!" A: Yeah!
J: Generally, people will come over and they'll say things along the lines of like...
"Oh, you're too beautiful to be in a wheelchair!" [drum rimshot]
And you're like, "..."
A: I'm having trouble even processing how those two things go together
J: Mmm. I know. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
A: I'm actually at a loss for words for this
J: It's slightly similar to the, 'you're too beautiful to be gay...'
A: Right. J: But that's kind of more of an insult.
J: "You're too beautiful to be disabled," they think is a compliment.
A: Yeah, it's not a compliment, though... J: No.
A: If we strip out all the awkwardness
and just the parts that aren't great
what were they trying to communicate to you?
J: They're just trying to tell me that I'm pretty. A: OK!
J: In some way sympathise with the fact that I have a disability
J: So, the intention is just...
'You look lovely! Having a disability must be hard, though.'
A: Right. J: So I try to hear that.
A: What's the right thing they should have said?
J: Maybe...just that I'm pretty? A: Yeah? Right? Yeah!
A: You could stop it there like...
J: Just a--just a...
A: "I like your dress!"
J: Or, equally, "It's a shame."
J: Hear that one a lot.
A: Not a shame, though!
J: So, like, "Aww, you're so beautiful! It's a shame about those crutches, though."
A: You could just leave that one off?
J: I mean, it's not a shame
J: because they help me to get somewhere! A: Right!
A: Do you ever take those moments and like...
make them teachable moments?
J: No. Never. A: Hahaha!
J: I know! Do you feel like I should?
A: Um - oh, I think that's totally up to you.
I don't wanna give anybody a responsibility, like,
"You are responsible to teach these people who clearly don't know how to speak"
A: That's like a thing that
A: I am kind of trying to navigate right now. J: OK
A: When someone says something to me
that isn't great, I'm trying to speak up more
and kind of make it a teachable moment
because....
for a few reasons:
A: 1. I'm just getting tired of like letting it happen
2. Maybe they can learn something
A: Maybe they'll walk away from it better
J: And then the next non-binary person that they meet, they'll not say that
A: Right
[Jessica's voice]
A: I want to acknowledge that
A: not everyone has the energy to educate and teach. J: Yes.
A: So, if you don't want to,
that's totally on you and you don't have to do it!
J: What are the comments that you get quite often?
A: So for like...top surgery,
I get, like, "Why would you wanna do that to yourself?"
A: What I think they're asking, if I'm being nice, is like...
'I've never met anyone like this before, and I don't quite understand it...
Would you help me understand why you feel this way?'
J: They're trying to be nice by going, 'But you're lovely just the way you are, dear.'
A: Yeah. Uh huh. And then they don't realise that
when they say that, it, y'know, pressures me into doing something I don't wanna do
and they're kind of taking away agency of my body.
[Jessica's voice]
A: Just because it doesn't make sense for you
for me to get top surgery doesn't mean I'm not allowed to do it.
This is my body!
J: And they're potentially not connecting that this part of your body
has to do with your mental health.
A: Yeah, they definitely view it as like cosmetic,
when it's not.
A: So, when I tell people who I am,
or when they ask a question and then I kind of have to out myself as non-binary,
I get a lot of
"Oh, I just don't get that. I just--I don't... I just don't."
A: It becomes apparent that
it's too much for them; they're uncomfortable, and they kind of wanna just move on.
J: People are rude.
A: Yeah...
A: Yeah.
J: But then do you also get-- [laughing]
do you also get people who have absolutely the best intentions,
but are a bit like, "Um...'she,' 'her,' 'they,' er, 'he,' er..."?
A: I'm cis-passing.
A: So, 'cis-passing' means, like...
It just means like not visibly trans.
A: So, the only time that somebody, like, makes a mistake
is when we're actually having a conversation about being non-binary.
J: Oh, OK.
A: Nobody just comes up to me and says, like, "You look androgynous, what's that about?"
A: Or anything like that...
[Jessica's voice]
J: When I was...first got really ill, when I was seventeen,
and a few weeks after I got diagnosed,
I went to a fair,
and I went to go and use the toilet
J: I don't need to qualify that...
J: I'm allowed to use the disabled toilets. A: Yeah.
J: And I came out and there was a lady standing there with children.
And she went, "Ugh!"
"Not disabled OR with children, then?!"
J: And it just like cut me to my core.
A: Sure. Mmhm.
J: I think I just like
cried and walked away.
It sounds weird but I kind of hope someone does that again to me one day.
A: Yeah, yeah, yeah! What would you say? J: So I can be like, "Well, actually...!"
"I have an invisible disability; it's like this, this, and this..."
"Did you know there are a variety of people who have a variety of conditions that may need to use this toilet?"
"It isn't always immediately obvious."
"You shouldn't be teaching your children to be so prejudiced."
A: Yeah!
A: Actually, though, that's what I was saying when I was trying to talk about those teachable moments.
A: They're scary, right?
A: Because you're, like--you feel horrible. That person just ripped you down.
Now that I'm a little bit of a stronger person
and I've been dealing with some like transphobic things more and more.
I feel like I have a thicker skin.
A: And I'm trying to take those moments, and be brave and be like,
"Well...meow, meow, meow, meow, meow."
That way they can learn and grow and be different
And I think that if anybody has the strength to do that, it makes a difference and they should.
J: You obviously have that a lot on the internet, as well.
A: Yeah.
J: So, the other day, I made this video about LGBTQ+ Sign Language.
British Sign Language.
And then I made some GIFs from it and then I put it on Twitter
A: Right.
J: And oh, my God! I had included gender non-binary
J: and just the hate... A: Yeah.
J: that that got!
J: I got so, so upset that people think they can come in
and take away someone's identity
and try and invalidate a part of someone.
A: If you've never talked about non-binary things on your channel before - have you?
J: No. A: OK, well...
J: This video's gonna be fun.
A: It can be hit or miss
when I collab with someone before who's never talked about these things on their channel.
A: It's really hard to know
how your audience feels about it if you've never kind of
dipped your toes in the waters before.
A: So, you might get some hate in the comments.
A lot of people might not think I'm real - hey, how's it going?
A: I am real. I know you don't think I'm real. I see you, but...
but this makes me happy and it's just my truth, so...I don't know what to tell ya.
So hopefully your audience is open...
J: My people are lovely people.
J: It's just the random others A: Uh huh. On Twitter?
J: who I feel like search the internet for things that make them angry.
A: OK.
J: I think there must be people who do that, right? A: Yes!
A: For sure. Oh, yeah.
A: There are whole channels devoted to making video responses;
ripping apart people like me. Did you know that? J: Yes.
A: Yeah. You--OK, yeah, of course. Yeah.
A: Angry looking for things to be more angry about so they can make money off being angry...
J: I don't think any of us have the right to go into someone else's space and make them unhappy, really.
To take a part of someone and say, "Oh, I know you think you feel this way, but...I don't think so."
A: Yeah, "I don't think you feel this way" - what? J: I think it's about... It's you...
A: I agree. I'm with ya.
A: Yeah. At this point I've just decided kind of to live and let live
They're gonna keep existing and...so am I!
J: Well, you should, 'cause you're awesome. A: Aw, thank you!
J: We should move on to some actually good advice
for people who do want to say the right thing
and they just get scared about it.
A: Yeah.
A: I think it's a really neat show of vulnerability when you just admit that you don't know much
make it clear how much you do know, so if somebody wanted to learn about non-binary identities,
A: I would appreciate it if they came up to me and were like...
"Hey, um...
I don't really know much about this."
J: Yeah.
"But I would like to..."
A: Ask if I would consent to have a conversation about it. J: Sure, sure.
A: 'Cause I don't always--I'm not always in the mood; it can be heavy
Just, like, kindly ask a question directly.
"What are your pronouns?"
"Hi, I'm Ben, and my pronouns are he/him. What are your pronouns?"
You can set it up with yourself first
That way it's not super othering, just like, "What are your pronouns? You're clearly--you're clearly different."
[Jessica's voice]
A: If you have a question, I can tell.
I can always tell. I can read it in your face.
A: I can tell you want to ask something; I can tell you don't get something,
and that makes me uncomfortable
So, if you have a question, you should just ask it!
A: "I'm wondering about something. Would it be all right if I asked you a question?"
And then I'll tell you yes or no.
A: [To Jessica] What about you?
J: I would just want people to not be scared
But also to say more like, "How can I help?"
J: "How can I be useful?" A: Sure!
J: So, in terms of like with lip-reading,
because I am deaf and I rely on lip-reading
A: Right. J: because most people around me don't sign,
J: so I'm good at lip-reading.
J: So, if you meet me and I'm like, "Oh, I'm deaf, actually,"
just be like, "Oh, OK.. Is there anything I can do to help
make this conversation a bit easier?"
A: Oh! Awesome.
J: And I'll be like, "Yeah, could you actually just twist a bit so the light's right here
and I can see you better?"
Or, if I'm in my wheelchair, again, just...you know...
If we're like going somewhere and I'm in my wheelchair,
people sometimes get awkward about doors
A: Sure!
"Oh, no, I've come to the door...
with a disabled person next to me..."
[Mimics a confused, deliberating person]
J: "I don't wanna take away their agency" A: Again!
J: "and open the door for them..."
"But, then, I'm not opening the door for a disabled person."
A: See! It's this--it's this look.
A: That's what I'm talking about! It's this look.
A: We can tell...
Like, you're uncomfortable.
You have a question.
A: You don't know how to navigate whatever situation you're in.
J: 'Cause I also have a lot of energy problems,
I get really floppy.
A: OK.
J: And I get this--we call it rag doll.
J: Where I just--I literally become a rag doll. A: Uh huh.
J: And I can't hold myself up any more... A: Uh huh.
J: And I think it probably looks like I'm drunk.
J: We went out to dinner the other night. A: Uh huh.
J: With our little gang.
And about - I don't know - how far through?
J: Two thirds of the way through?
I just lost it.
J: I just couldn't. A: Sure. You rag-dolled it up.
J: I don't even remember what happened.
J: I just remember being like, "I'm really tired."
And then I was like, "I'm lying down."
J: I don't know, I think I fell asleep.
Or did I? Did I fall asleep?
J: Yes. There are nods.
So I fell asleep in a restaurant
J: (which happens) A: Mmhm.
J: And everyone else around me had had like one drink...
J: So they all seemed very sober. A: Uh huh.
J: And I'm sure I looked kind of ridiculous.
J: And I'm sure they probably gave me some weird looks. A: Right.
J: It's probably better to just be like, "Is she OK?" A: Yeah! [Laughing]
J: "Can I open this door for you?"
Claudia: I think they think I dosed you up on rohypnol or something.
J: If you can't hear that, Claudia says
she thinks people might occasionally assume she's drugged me.
J: In which case...why are they not stepping in?! A: Yeah!
A: No, yeah, so what's happening in that situation is they're, like, concerned.
So rather than just like staring and judging...
They should just express their concern.
A: Just like you said: J: Yes.
A: "Are you OK? Is everything OK?"
J: "Can I help?" A: "Yeah, it is? Great!"
J: So, I think our take-away here -
the most important thing is just that it's OK to ask questions.
A: Mmhm. Otherwise, we feel scary and different.
J: Well, we have also - well, we haven't... -
A: We're going to!
J: We're going to film a video for Ash's channel, which is going to be
very different!
A: [Sing-song voice] A makeover! I'm gonna be turned into a...
gender-normative lady!
J: So, make sure you watch that.
J: The link will be down below in the description
as well as the links to all of Ash's social media,
where you can go and follow them being adorable all the time.
A: Awww, thank you!
J: Thank you very much for joining me on my channel.
A: It was my pleasure.
J: Aww!
J: Bye, bye, everyone! Mwah!