JUST DAYS AFTER THE FAILED COUP IN TURKEY, PRESIDENT
ERDOGAN DECLARED A STATE OF EMERGENCY, AND THAT OF COURSE
GAVE HIM SOME MUCH STRONGER POWERS TO CLAMP DOWN ON WHAT HE
SEES AS OPPOSITION OR EXTREMISM.
SOME PEOPLE SEE IT AS THE MEDIA
OR EDUCATION SYSTEM.
SO WITH THAT STATE OF EMERGENCY
DECLARED, HE IS NOW USING IT.
SO --
>>
TURKISH AUTHORITIES ALSO DETAINED OF GULEN.
A NEPHEW OF
WE HAVE THE ORGANIZATION, WE HAVE ONE OF HIS FAMILY MEMBERS
APPARENTLY BEING SEIZED, WHICH HASN'T HAPPENED BEFORE, ALSO --
>> NOW IT HAS GONE BEYOND INDIVIDUALS TO LITERALLY
THOUSANDS OF ORGANIZATIONS FROM MEDICAL TO EDUCATIONAL TO
CHARITY ORGANIZATIONS AS WELL.
>> LET'S CLARIFY WHAT MAKES SENSE AND WHAT DOESN'T IN THIS
PURGE.
FIRST OF ALL, PURGES ARE USUALLY NOT A GOOD THING.
SECOND
OF ALL, AFTER A COUP --
>>I HEAR THE MOST RECENT MOVIE IS NOT BAD.
>>I WILL HAVE TO CHECK OUT WHAT THE FLICK TO SEE IF THAT IS THE
CASE.
AFTER A COUP, A SMALL PURGE PERHAPS COULD BE
UNDERSTANDABLE, OF THE PEOPLE WHO DID THE COUP.
WHAT IS
INTERESTING IS THAT THE MILITARY IS ONLY A SMALL FRACTION OF THE
PEOPLE BEING PURGED, AND A SMALL FRACTION OF THE MILITARY IS
BEING PURGED.
SO LESS THAN 10% OF THE MILITARY THAT IS BEING
DETAINED AND PURGED, AND ABOUT LESS THAN 1/6 OF THE PURGE IS
THE MILITARY.
THE OVERWHELMING MAJORITY OF THE PURGE IS
TEACHERS, JUDGES, PROSECUTORS, EVEN CHARITIES AS JOHN
EXPLAINED.
AND JOURNALISTS, THE MOST IMPORTANT PART.
BUT A LARGE
SECTION OF THE MILITARY HIGHER COMMAND HAS BEEN ARRESTED, THAT
IS THE CONTEXT AS WELL.
WHAT MAKES SENSE AND WHAT DOESN'T?
GULAN, THE GUY IN PENNSYLVANIA, DOES HAVE A TREMENDOUS INFLUENCE
WITHIN THE POWER STRUCTURE OF TURKEY, AND HE DOES HAVE PEOPLE
PLANTED IN ALL THOSE DIFFERENT AREAS.
SO IT IS AND AMAZING
ORGANIZATION, AND THEY SPENT A LOT OF TIME AND EFFORT
RECRUITING PEOPLE, INCLUDING, AND I HATE TO SAY THIS BECAUSE I
HATE THE PURGE OF THE JOURNALISTS, BUT INCLUDING
INTERMEDIATE ORGANIZATIONS, NES SCHOOLS, AND NOT LIKE PUBLIC
SCHOOLS LIKE WE THINK OF, BUT SOMETIMES SCHOOLS THAT THINK
EDUCATION FROM A MUSLIM PERSPECTIVE.
AND YES, HE HAS
GOT PROSECUTORS AND POLICE AND MILITARY, SOME
PORTIONS OF THE MILITARY, ON HIS SIDE.
UNDERSTAND, ERDOGAN WAS
NOT LIKE, IT IS A COUP, LET ME TAKE A COUPLE OF DAYS TO WHIP UP
A LIST OF 60,000 PEOPLE -- THEY ALREADY HAD THE LIST.
IT IS
UNCLEAR WHAT HAPPENED IN THE COUP, ONE OF THE MOST CONFUSING
SITUATIONS I'VE EVER SEEN, BUT WHAT IS CLEAR IS ERDOGAN, THE
LEADER OF TURKEY, ALREADY HAD A LIST OF PEOPLE HE WANTED TO
PURGE.
AND AFTER THE COUP HE IS LIKE, LOOK AT THIS, THIS IS MY
LIST OF 60,000 PEOPLE, THAT IS CONVENIENT, ROUND THEM UP.
IT
DOESN'T MEAN THEY WEREN'T WORKING AGAINST THE GOVERNMENT,
GULAN, THEY USED TO BE BIG-TIME ALLIES, THEY HAD A RIFT COUPLE
OF YEARS AGO, GULAN AND HIS PEOPLE HAVE BEEN WORKING AGAINST
ERDOGAN, THAT DOESN'T MEAN THEY ARE ALL TRADERS, A COUP IS A
DIFFERENT THING THAN I AM WORKING AGAINST HIM AND DISAGREE
WITH THEM -- BUT IS THERE ALSO IN THE PURGE HERE?
YES, BECAUSE
OF SOME OF THE JOURNALISTS BEING PURGED ARE NOT PART OF GULAN'S
ORGANIZATION AT ALL.
A RENOWNED LEFT-WING JOURNALIST WHO CAN'T
STAND GULAN BUT HAS CRITICIZED ERDOGAN --
ERDOGAN IS LIKE, ADD HIM TO THE LIST.
>>WE SAW SOME OF IT BEFORE THE COUP.
>>AND HE IS USING THE COUP AS AN EXCUSE TO PURGE ALMOST ALL OF
HIS OPPONENTS, LEGITIMATE OR ILLEGITIMATE, AND THAT IS
DEEPLY TROUBLING FOR TURKISH DEMOCRACY.
>>SO MANY THINGS WERE QUESTIONABLE ABOUT THAT COUP IN
THE FIRST PLACE, I DON'T WANT TO GET INTO THE CONSPIRACY
CATEGORY, BUT I FEEL THAT THE FIRST THING A MILITARY WOULD DO
DURING A COUP WAS DETAIN THE LEADER.
AND WHY WOULD YOU START
A COUP WHEN HE ISN'T EVEN IN THE COUNTRY?
>>HE WAS DOWN IN THE SOUTHERN PART OF THE COUNTRY, HE
WASN'T IN THE CAPITAL.
>>THAT MAKE SENSE.
>> BUT THE CORE OF YOUR QUESTION IS RIGHT.
HE WAS IN A SOUTHERN
RESORT TOWN, THAT IS NOT A BAD THING FOR HIM TO BE THERE
OUTSIDE OF THE CENTER OF POWER IF YOU ARE GOING TO DO A COUP,
BUT YOU'VE GOT TO GO AND GET HIM.
>>HARDER FOR HIM TO ORGANIZE, AND YOU SAW THAT HE WAS FACEBOOK
LIVE-ING TO COMMUNICATE WITH PEOPLE BECAUSE HE WAS OUT
OF THE HALLS OF POWER.
>>FACE TIME ON HIS PHONE, BUT SIMILAR.
THAT IT GETS STRANGER,
ONLY TWO SETS OF PEOPLE THEY HAVE NOT CAUGHT IN THIS COUP --
THE EIGHT PEOPLE WHO LANDED IN GREECE, THAT IS UNDERSTANDABLE,
THEY ARE SEEKING ASYLUM IN GREECE, THEY'RE WORKING THAT
OUT.
THAT THE NOT UNDERSTANDABLE PART IS THE 11 COMMANDOS THAT
WENT TO GO EITHER DETAIN OR KILL ERDOGAN, THOSE ARE THE GUYS MOST
RESPONSIBLE FOR THE COUP, THEY CAME TO KILL THE LEADER, AND
THEY ARE THE ONLY GUYS WHO AREN'T CAUGHT.
NOW, THAT IS REALLY CURIOUS.
>>UNLESS THEY WERE CAUGHT.
>>YOU'VE NOW GOT A LIST OF 60,000 PEOPLE YOU ARE DETAINING,
FIRING, PURGING -- BUT THE MAIN GUYS WHO WERE INVOLVED, YOU
SOMEHOW COULDN'T CATCH THEM?
THAT'S BEYOND BIZARRE.
>>THAT IS ALMOST THE EXCLAMATION POINT ALL OF IT.
I THINK I HEARD
ABOUT IT FROM YOU FIRST, WHEN I FIRST HEARD THAT PART OF IT I
WAS LIKE, CLEARLY THIS WAS NOT A REAL COUP.
FOR IT WAS THE WORST
COUP EVER, AND ERDOGAN KNEW IT WAS GOING TO GO THE WAY IT WAS
GOING TO GO ANYWAY, EVEN IF IT WAS -- BUT THERE IS SOMETHING TO
BE SAID, PEOPLE WERE SAYING HE WAS OUTSIDE THE CITY, IT IS THE
TYPE OF PLACE THEY LEAVE FROM WHEN THEY ARE BEING DEPOSED,
MAYBE THEY GAVE HIM A HEADS UP AND HE WAS LEAVING.
I DON'T
BELIEVE THAT, I BELIEVE THIS WAS SOME SORT OF AN ORCHESTRATION.
BUT THE BIG PICTURE THING IS, IT SHOWS HOW TEETERING ON
DEMOCRACY TURKEY REALLY IS.
AND AS THEY TRY TO PORTRAY
THEMSELVES TO BECOME PART OF THE EU, THEY WERE THIS CLOSE TO
HAVING THIS HAPPEN AND HAVING THIS GO WORSE AND EVEN FURTHER.
>>IN TERMS OF, COULD IT BE A CONSPIRACY?
THERE ARE PROS AND
CONS TO THAT.
FIRST OF ALL, CONSPIRACIES IN TURKEY DO
HAPPEN.
IF YOU ASK A TURKISH PERSON WHO DID ANYTHING, NAME
IT, RAINSTORM -- CIA.
THEY THINK EVERYTHING IS THE CIA.
PARTLY
BECAUSE THE CIA HAS BEEN THERE, THERE ARE SUBSTANTIAL RUMORS
THAT GULAN IS AN ASSET OF THE CIA, SO HERE THEY GOT A LITTLE
BIT OF A CASE.
BUT IT IS PARTLY BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT DOES
CONSPIRACIES ALL THE TIME SO FROM THEIR PERSPECTIVE THEY ARE
LIKE THAT IS WHAT HAPPENS.
FOR EXAMPLE WE FOUND OUT BECAUSE
GULAN WAS WIRETAPPING ERDOGAN, AND ONCE THEY HAD THE RIFT HE
MAKES TAPES OF ERDOGAN'S EVENTUAL PRIME MINISTER, HIS
SECOND IN CHARGE, SAYING, LET'S DO A FALSE FLAG OPERATION INSIDE
SYRIA.
IN AMERICA WHEN YOU HEAR FALSE FLAG OPERATIONS, YOU THINK
CUCKOO FOR COCOA PUFFS.
>>MILITIAS.
>>IN THAT CASE IT WAS A LITTLE FALSE FLAG OPERATION THEY WERE
PLANNING, LET'S PRETEND TO ATTACK OURSELVES SO WE HAVE AN
EXCUSE TO BOMB ASSAD'S GOVERNMENT.
AND THEY HAVE IT ON
THE PHONE FROM THE GUY WHO WOUND UP BECOMING THE PRIME MINISTER.
SO THOSE THINGS DO HAPPEN.
WAS THIS A CONSPIRACY WHERE ERDOGAN
DID IT HIMSELF?
I REALLY DON'T KNOW, BECAUSE HE LOOKED FRAZZLED
IN THAT FACETIME VIDEO, IT DIDN'T LOOK LIKE A GUY WHO WOULD
PLAN THAT.
AND HE SEEMS TO BE IN A RAGE OVER ALL THE PEOPLE
WITHIN HIS INNER CIRCLE THAT DID NOT LET HIM KNOW THAT THE COUP
WAS HAPPENING FOR ABOUT FOUR TO SIX HOURS.
THAT RAGE SEEMS TO BE
REAL, AND HE'S TAKING OUT SOME OF HIS INNER, CORE PEOPLE, WHICH
LEADS YOU TO BELIEVE HE WAS GENUINELY SURPRISED.
IT MIGHT BE
A MIXTURE, IT MIGHT BE THAT GULAN DIDN'T SAY GO TO THE COUP,
BUT HIS SUPPORTERS KNEW THEY WERE ON THE LIST, AND THEY
PANICKED AND IN A BOTCHED COUP.
AND MAYBE THEY DID THE BOTCHED
COUP AND THEY SAID, ALL RIGHT, ERDOGAN SAID LET'S PRETEND
THESE GUYS CAME TO KILL US.
>>WHAT IS THE UPSHOT?
WHAT HAPPENS NOW?
>>THE MOST IMPORTANT PART IS WHAT IS TO HAPPEN GOING FORWARD,
GREAT QUESTION BY MIKE.
TURKISH DEMOCRACY UNFORTUNATELY IS
GREATLY DAMAGED, ERDOGAN WILL HAVE ENTRENCHED POWER, HE WAS
LITERALLY ROUNDING UP HIS OPPONENTS.
YES, DEMOCRACY STILL
EXISTS, THEY ARE STILL DOING DEMONSTRATIONS WITH ERDOGAN'S
PARTY, THAT WOULD BE LIKE THE REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS AND
LIBERTARIANS DOING A JOINT PROTEST AGAINST A MILITARY COUP,
SO HE HASN'T ARRESTED EVERYONE BUT HE HAS GOTTEN RID OF A LOT
OF HIS OPPONENTS, IT WOULD BE NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE TO DISPLACE
ERDOGAN NOW IN AN ELECTION OR OTHERWISE.
SO BUCKLE UP, WHETHER
YOU LIKE HIM OR NOT, HE WILL BE IN CHARGE FOR A LONG TIME IN
TURKEY.
AND THE STATE OF JOURNALISM WILL BE HURT BECAUSE
NOW HE HAS ARRESTED SO MANY JOURNALISTS THAT ARE OPPOSED TO
HIM, AND OPPOSITION IS GOING TO BE COWED BY WHAT HAPPENED HERE.
AND CAN YOU REALLY KNOW WHO IS WINNING THE ELECTIONS WHEN ONE
PARTY CONTROLS SO THOROUGHLY AN ARRESTS THEIR OPPONENTS?
IT IS
HARD TO TELL IF THE ELECTIONS ARE REAL.
IT WAS HARD ENOUGH TO
TELL BEFORE, AND THERE WERE QUESTION WHAT ABOUT THAT, THERE
WILL BE FURTHER QUESTION MARK NOW.
SO UNFORTUNATELY BOTH THE
COUP AND ERDOGAN'S REACTION TO IT HAS TAKEN ONE OF THE SECULAR
DEMOCRACIES IN THE WORLD THAT WAS A VERY IMPORTANT PLACE IN
THE WORLD AND NOW PUT THAT IN DOUBT.