♪ ♪ ♪ >> Stephen: HEY, EVERYBODY,
WELCOME BACK TO "A LATE SHOW."
HE IS THE NEW YORK TIMES BESTSELLING AUTHOR OF
"UNCOMFORTABLE CONVERSATIONS WITH A BLACK MAN."
ON MONDAY NIGHT, HE WILL BE HOSTING "THE BACHELOR: AFTER THE
FINAL ROSE."
PLEASE WELCOME BACK TO "A LATE SHOW," EMMANUEL ACHO!
EMMANUEL, GOOD TO SEE YOU AGAIN.
>> MY BROTHER, SO GOOD TO SEE YOU, MY FRIEND.
SO GOOD TO SEE YOU.
>> Stephen: YOU'RE ONE OF THE FEW GUESTS WE HAVE ACTUALLY HAD
TWICE IN COVID.
THIS IS HOW LONG IT'S BEEN GOING ON.
THE LAST TIME YOU WERE HERE, WE WERE TALKING ABOUT
"UNCOMFORTABLE CONVERSATIONS WITH A BLACK MAN" AND
UNCOMFORTABLE CONVERSATIONS IN GENERAL.
AND WHILE TALKING ABOUT SYSTEMIC RACISM AS A WHITE MAN CAN BE
UNCOMFORTABLE, I DON'T MEAN TO DISAPPOINT YOU, BUT YOU'RE
ACTUALLY VERY COMFORTABLE TO TALK TO.
I HOPE THAT DOESN'T SEEM LIKE A FAILURE TO YOU.
>> OH, IT'S A CATCH-22.
I LURE YOU IN BY SAYING IT WILL BE UNCOMFORTABLE, BUT ONCE
YOU'RE HERE, STEPHEN, IT'S ALL COMFORT, MY FRIEND.
>> Stephen: THIS SUMMER, YOU LAUNCHED A WEB SERIES TO TALK
ABOUT RACE IN AMERICA.
AT THAT POINT, WHEN WE WERE TALKING THIS SUMMER, DID YOU, IN
YOUR WILDEST DREAMS, THINK YOU WOULD BE HOSTING "THE BACHELOR"
THE NEXT TIME WE TALKED?
>> ABSOLUTELY NOT.
THAT IS THE CRAZIEST OF STORIES THAT "UNCOMFORTABLE
CONVERSATIONS WITH A BLACK MAN" A BOOK ABOUT RACIAL
RECONCILIATION WILL LEAD YOU-- LEAD ME-- TO NOW HOSTING THE
MOST-UNCOMFORTABLE EPISODE OF ONE OF THE MOST-WATCHED SHOWS IN
OUR RECENT HISTORY.
MIND BLOWING.
>> Stephen: IT IS ABSOLUTELY INCREDIBLE.
LET'S GET TO THAT.
"THE BACHELOR" IS ALWAYS FULL OF DRAMA, OBVIOUSLY.
BUT THIS SEASON WAS PARTICULARLY DRAMATIC.
THERE WAS CONTROVERSY OFF SCREEN.
FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT KNOW, CAN YOU EXPLAIN WHAT HAPPENED, AND
WHY PEOPLE WERE SO UPSET?
>> TWO-FOLD.
FIRST AND FOREMOST, THIS SEASON WAS THE FIRST BLACK BACHELOR,
MATT JAMES.
THAT'S NO SMALL FEAT.
20 SEASONS AND WE NOW HAVE OUR FIRST BLACK BACHELOR-- OVER 20
SEASONS, IN FACT.
BUT ALSO, ONE OF HIS FINAL THREE FRONT-RUNNERS, RACHEL, SHE WAS
PICTURED AT AN ANTEBELLUM-STYLE PLANTATION ON SOCIAL MEDIA IN
2018.
AND THOSE PICTURES RESURFACED.
SHE IS A WHITE WOMAN, OBVIOUSLY, AND SO YOU HAVE MATT JAMES, A
BLACK MAN, ONE OF HIS FINAL FRONT-RUNNERS, RACHEL, HAS THESE
PICTURES SURFACE, THESE RACIALLY INSENSITIVE PICTURES.
IMAGINE HOW CONVOLUTED AND VOLATILE THIS TOPIC IS BECAUSE
YOU'RE DEALING WITH LOVE AND YOU'RE ALSO DEALING WITH RACE
AND RACIAL INSENSITIVITY.
>> Stephen: OKAY, AND THIS IS-- AND I BELIEVE, IF I'M NOT
MISTAKEN, THESE ARE LIKE A-- QUOTE, UNQUOTE-- OLD SOUTH DAYS.
IT'S PEOPLE IN HOOP SKIRTS.
IT'S ACTUALLY RCREATING THE LOOK, IF NOT THE ENVIRONMENT
OF-- OF AN OLD SOUTH PLANTATION.
>> CORRECT.
ANTEBELLUM SOUTH PLANTATION IS THE PROPER TERM.
FOR THOSE AT HOME WONDERING, REMEMBER ANTEBELLUM IN LATIN
MEANS "BEFORE THE WAR," THE WAR IN QUESTION, THE CIVIL WAR THAT
FREED THE SLAVES.
SHE IS PICTURED IN ATTIRE CELEBRATING, IF YOU WILL, BACK
IN 2018, FOR WHICH SHE HAS SINCE APOLOGIZED, BUT SHE IS PICTURED
IN ATTIRE OF OLD SOUTH ANTEBELLUM PLANTATION, A
CELEBRATION, IF YOU.
THAT'S AT LEAST HOW IT LOOKS.
>> Stephen: AND, YOU KNOW, A CELEBRATION AND, ALSO, AT THE
VERY LEAST, A WILLFUL IGNORANCE ABOUT THE TRAGEDY ASSOCIATED
WITH THAT ENTIRE CULTURE.
OKAY, SO, THERE'S THE ORIGINAL SCANDAL, OR THERE'S THE ORIGINAL
PROBLEM.
NOW LET'S TALK ABOUT CHRIS HARRISON.
HOW DID THAT COME ABOUT?
FOR THE PEOPLE WHO DON'T KNOW THAT STORY, WHAT HAPPENED THERE
THAT HAS NOW PUT YOU IN THE HOSTING POSITION?
>> YEAH, SO CHRIS HARRISON, WHO HAS BEEN THE HOST FOR 20 YEARS
AND HAS RECENTLY STEPPED ASIDE DURING THIS MOMENT, HE TRIED TO
GO TO THE DEFENSE OF RACHEL IN AN INTERVIEW WITH RACHEL
LINDSEY, AND CHRIS HARRISON, HE WAS-- AS HE WOULD ADMIT-- WAS
IGNORANT AND WAS ARROGANT IN SAYING THAT, WELL, IN 2018, WHAT
RACHEL DID WASN'T THAT BAD."
CHRIS HARRISON'S WORDS, NOT NECESSARILY MY OWN.
AND "WE'VE ALL KIND OF ACKNOWLEDGED AND CALLED TO THE
ATTENTION."
NO, NO, NO, IN 2018, IT WAS JUST AS BAD.
WE ARE MORE AWARE NOW, BUT 2018, ACKNOWLEDGING AND DRESSING IN
THE ATTIRE OF AN ANTEBELLUM SOUTH PLANTATION IS JUST AS BAD
AS IT IS RIGHT NOW TODAY.
>> Stephen: I THINK THAT IS SAFE TO SAY, THOSE ARE HIS WORDS
NOT YOURS.
>> VERY SAFE TO SAY.
>> Stephen: HERE WE ARE.
SO HE STEPS ASIDE TEMPORARILY FROM THOSE DUTIES.
DO YOU HAVE AN OPINION ABOUT WHETHER HE SHOULD BE DISMISSED
FOR GOOD FOR THIS?
OR IS THIS AN OPPORTUNITY FOR EDUCATION AND REDEMPTION FOR
SOMEONE?
>> YEAH, I DON'T BELIEVE IN CANCEL CULTURE.
I DO BELIEVE IN ACCOUNTABILITY.
AND SO, I THINK THAT RIGHT NOW, HE IS TAKING ACCOUNTABILITY FOR
HIS ACTIONS.
FOR EVERY ACTION THERE'S AN EQUAL AND OPPOSITE REACTION.
THAT CAN BE A LAW OF NEWTON OR BASIC COMMON SENSE.
HE HAD AN ACTION AND IS CURRENTLY DEALING WITH THE
REACTION FROM THAT.
SHOULD HE RETURN TO THAT ROLE?
YOU HAVE TO DECIDE WHAT'S IN THE BEST INTEREST OF CHRIS HARRISON?
WHAT'S IN THE BEST OF THE SHOW AND THE EXECUTIVE PRODUCERS.
BUT, ALSO, WHAT'S IN THE BEST INTEREST OF THE CAST?
YOU KNOW, THEY'RE TRYING TO COMMIT TO DIVERSITY.
YOU HAD YOUR FIRST BLACK BACHELOR.
WHAT'S IN THE BEST INTEREST OF ALL THREE OF THOSE PRIMARY
PARTIES AT PLAY AND MAKE THE DECISION THAT SERVES THE MOST
GOOD.
>> Stephen: AS YOU SAID, IT WAS AFTER 20 SEASONS-- 23
SEASONS, SOMETHING LIKE, THAT BEFORE YOU HAD THE FIRST BLACK
BACHELOR, AND WHEN YOU HAD THE FIRST BACHELORETTE.
DO YOU THINK THESE SHOWS SHOULD MORE ACCURATELY REFLECT REALITY
IN AMERICA?
YOU KNOW, THE REALITY THAT WE ALL LIVE OF-- OF A DIVERSE
CULTURE OF 20 DRUNK WOMEN LIVING IN ONE HOUSE TRYING TO GET ONE
GUY TO MARRY THEM-- YOU KNOW, THE REALITY OF AMERICA
( LAUGHS ) >> OH, YOU ARE A FOOL, MY
FRIEND.
>> Stephen: I TAKE THAT AS A COMPLIMENT.
BUT-- YOU KNOW, IT IS-- BECAUSE THE REASON I ASK IS THAT
DIVERSITY IS A WONDERFUL THING.
ARE THESE SHOWS ESSENTIALLY FANTASY TO BEGIN WITH?
ARE WE PUTTING TOO MUCH WEIGHT ON A REALITY SHOW?
>> SO, HERE IS THE ISSUE AT HAND.
THIS SHOW, "THE BACHELOR" AND "THE BACHELORETTE," THEY ARE
SUPPOSED TO BE THE UTOPIAN RELATIONSHIP IN AMERICA.
BUT IF FOR 20 SEASONS ALL WE SEE IS A WHITE MALE LEAD, IF FOR 13
SEASONS ALL WE SEE IS A WHITE FEMALE LEAD, THEN WHAT IS A
UTOPIAN DEPICTION OF LOVE IN AMERICA?
AS ME, AS A BLACK PERSON, I'M LOOKING AT THAT SHOW AND SAYING,
"WHERE DO I FIT IN?
WHERE I DO BELONG?" SO I THINK WE ALL HAVE TO COMMIT
BOTH IN SHOWS LIKE "THE BACHELOR" AND "THE
BACHELORETTE," AND IN OUR SOCIETY OF MORE ACCURATELY
REPRESENTING THE WHOLE, MORE ACCURATELY SERVING EVERYONE.
HOW DO YOU DO THAT?
YOU DON'T JUST DO IT BY WHO YOUR LEAD CHARACTER IS, BUT WHO IS
CASTING?
WHO ARE YOUR PRODUCERS?
IS THERE DIVERSITY ACROSS EVERY BOARD, MY FRIEND.
>> Stephen: OKAY, LET'S TALK ABOUT THE "AFTER THE ROSE" SHOW
THAT YOU'RE HOSTING.
I KNOW YOU CAN'T TELL US WHO GOT PICKED OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT.
I'M NOT TRYING TO, LIKE, SQUEEZE THAT OUT OF YOU--
>> IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU ARE.
IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU ARE.
>> Stephen: JUST GIVE ME A SCALE OF THE DRAMA.
ON A SCALE OF ONE TO 10, WHERE IS THE DRAMA ON THIS ONE?
>> I CAN FERVENTLY SAY THIS WILL BE THE MOST UNCOMFORTABLE
CONVERSATION IN BACHELOR FRANCHISE HISTORY.
WHY?
BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND --
>> Stephen: BECAUSE EMMANUEL ACHO IS WILLING TO HAVE THAT
UNCOMFORTABLE CONVERSATION.
>> LOOK, THOUGH, STEPHEN, YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND.
YOU'RE NOW MIXING LOVE-- WHICH IS ONE OF THE STRONGEST
EMOTIONS-- ALONG WITH RACIAL TENSION, WHICH IS ONE OF THE
MOST TOXIC AND VOLATILE TOPICS OF OUR CURRENT DAY.
LIKE, YOU'RE MIXING TWO INCREDIBLY STRONG AND VOLATILE
SUBJECT MATTERS, AND WEAVING THEM TOGETHER IN ONE FINAL
HOUR-LONG EPISODE AFTER THE CULMINATION OF THE SHOW.
IT BREEDS DISCOMFORT, AND I'M SO THRILLED TO BE A PART OF IT.
>> Stephen: I'LL WATCH.
I'LL WATCH.
OKAY.
JUST AS A FAN, I'VE GOT TO KNOW, ARE YOU A BACHELOR GUY OR A
"BACHELORETTE" GUY?
BECAUSE I-- "BACHELOR," QUALITY SHOW.
"BACHELORETTE," I REALLY ENJOY, LIKE, THE 20, YOU KNOW,
GREASED-UP MEAT SLABS FLEXING ON EACH OTHER.
THAT'S WHAT I REALLY LIKE.
THAT'S MY FAVORITE.
I-- I'M HERE FOR IT.
>> I'M GOING TO SAY I'M A "BACHELORETTE" GUY BECAUSE I
LIKE SEEING THE MEN HAVE TO COMPETE AND SEEING ALL THEIR
EGOS GET INVOLVED.
>> Stephen: SURE.
>> THEY GET SENSITIVE AND ALL THESE MACHO MEN GET THEIR HEARTS
BROKEN AND WHATNOT.
I PREFER IT THAT WAY.
>> Stephen: NOW, YOU WOULD MAKE A GREAT BACHELOR ON "THE
BACHELORETTE" COMPETING WITH THE OTHER GUYS.
HAVE YOU-- HAVE YOU-- WOULD YOU DO THE SHOW?
>> DUDE, TRUE STORY, TRUE STORY.
I'VE SAID IT BUT NEVER THIS PUBLICLY.
I WAS ASKED TO DO THE SHOW THREE TIMES NOW.
IN 2018, THEN LATER IN 2018 FOR WHAT WOULD HAVE BEEN HANNAH
BROWN SEASON, AND THE BEGINNING OF 2020, I WAS AGAIN APPROACHED
ABOUT DOING THE SHOW.
AND I TURNED IT DOWN ALL THREE TIMES.
AND LOOK -- >> Stephen: WHY!
YOU WOULD HAVE BEEN AN AUDIENCE FAVORITE!
>> I'D LIKE TO KEEP MY PUBLIC LIFE PUBLIC, AND MY PRIVATE LIFE
PRIVATE.
>> Stephen: ALL RIGHT, OKAY.
SO ONE OTHER THING YOU'RE NOT GOING TO TELL ME ABOUT IS YOU'RE
NOT GOING TO TELL ME WHO GOT PICKED.
AND I WON'T EVEN SAY...
WHO YOU WOULD PICK BETWEEN THE TWO FINALISTS, WHICH ARE RACHEL
AND MICHELLE.
BUT DO YOU HAVE AN OPINION?
DO YOU HAVE A CHOICE IN YOUR MIND IF YOU HAD TO PICK?
>> I MEAN, IT'S INTERESTING, RIGHT, RACHEL IS CURRENTLY
DEALING WITH ALL OF THIS RACIALLY TENSE CONTROVERSY.
SO THAT WOULD KIND OF, OBVIOUSLY, SKEW MY DECISION AS A
BLACK MAN, IF I ALREADY KNEW ABOUT SAID CONTROVERSY.
BUT I THINK WHAT'S SO INTERESTING IS WATCHING BOTH OF
THE LOVE CONNECTIONS PLAY OUT.
I THINK MATT AND RACHEL HAVE AN INCREDIBLE CONNECTION, JUST
INFECTION.
MATT ADMITTED HE WAS FALLING FOR RACHEL FIRST.
AND MICHELLE AND MATT THEY REALLY VIBE AND WE SAW IT AND
CONTINUE TO SEE IT OVER THE COURSE OF THE SEASON.
I CAN'T SPEAK FOR MICHELLE-- FOR MATT, RATHER.
BUT I'M EXCITED TO WATCH IT PLAY OUT.
>> Stephen: ME, TOO.
AND I'M ALSO EXCITING ABOUT YOUR NEW BOOK.
IT'S A-- IT'S A FOLLOW-UP TO "UNCOMFORTABLE CONVERSATIONS
WITH A BLACK MAN."
AND IT'S "UNCOMFORTABLE CONVERSATIONS WITH A BLACK BOY."
WHO IS THIS BOOK FOR?
>> STEPHEN WHEN I WAS AN ADOLESCENT, I ALWAYS HEARD,
"EMMANUEL YOU'RE LIKE AN OREO-- WHITE ON THE INSIDE, BLACK ON
THE OUTSIDE."
I DIDN'T REALIZE HOW OFFENSIVE THAT WAS BECAUSE MY WHITE
FRIEND, WHEN I WAS YOUNG WERE SAYING, "EMMANUEL, YOU'RE TOO
SMART TO BE BLACK."
OR "YOU DRESS TOO WELL TO BE BLACK."
SM I HAD AN IDENTITY COMPLEX.
SO THIS BOOK IS FOR OUR YOUNG ADULTS.
THINK AGES 12-16, 10-14, BECAUSE IF WE CAN FIX THE NEXT
GENERATION OF IGNORANCE, IF WE CAN FIX THE NEXT GENERATION OF
INSENSITIVITY, THEN WE CAN CURE THE PROBLEM AT THE ROOT.
DON'T TRY TO CORRECT THE LEAVES.
DON'T TRY TO CUT DOWN THE BRANCHES.
FIX THE ROOTS OF OUR RACIAL IGNORANCE OF OUR SOCIETY AND
THEN WATCH WHAT SPROWTS FROM THERE.
>> Stephen: EMMANUEL, THANKS SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE.
>> Jon: MY PLEASURE, MY FRIEND.
>> Stephen: "THE BACHELOR: AFTER THE FINAL ROSE" AIRS ON
THIS MONDAY NIGHT ON ABC.
EMMANUEL ACHO, EVERYBODY!
WE'LL BE RIGHT BACK WITH COMEDIAN GINA YASHERE.
♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪