WERE THE SAME, THESE MIGHT BE
THE ONLY TWO GROUPS ON THIS
PLANET THAT ARE THE SAME.
NEIL: HUH.
YOU DO MENTION, THOUGH, THAT
SOME OF THE FIXES FOR
DISPARITIES DID WORSEN OVER
TIME.
AND I'M WONDERING AS A PROMINENT
CONSERVATIVE THINKER BUT ALSO AS
AN AFRICAN-AMERICAN WHETHER
AFRICAN-AMERICANS HAVE BEEN
SLIGHTED OR PUSHED ASIDE BY
MARKET FORCES HAVING NOTHING
MORE TO DO WITH THAN THE COLOR
OF THEIR SKIN.
WHAT DO YOU SAY?
>> I THINK, I THINK THAT THE
ATTEMPTS TO MAKE THINGS BETTER
ARE ONE OF THE MAJOR REASONS
THAT THINGS HAVE GOTTEN WORSE.
I GO -- IN THE BOOK, FOR
EXAMPLE, I GO INTO MINIMUM WAGE
LAWS.
NEIL: RIGHT.
>> AND, YOU KNOW, I START WITH A
PERIOD IN WHICH THE MINIMUM WAGE
LAWS WERE INEFFECTIVE BECAUSE OF
INFLATION --
NEIL: BUT YOU ALSO ARGUE BEFORE
THEY CAME INTO EFFECT, BEFORE
THEY CAME INTO EFFECT THERE WAS
EVEN UNEMPLOYMENT RATES BETWEEN
BLACK AND WHITE YOUTHS, RIGHT?
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
AS OF 1948 --
NEIL: RIGHT.
>> -- 16 AND 17-YEAR-OLD BLACK
WORKERS HAD A SLIGHTLY LOWER
UNEMPLOYMENT RATE THAN WHITE
WORKERS THE SAME AGE.
AND BOTH OF THEM HAD
UNEMPLOYMENT RATES THAT ARE A
FRACTION OF WHAT THEY ARE NOW.
THAT MADE A SPECIAL IMPRESSION
ON ME BECAUSE I WAS ONE OF THOSE
PEOPLE.
I LEFT HOME WHEN I WAS 17, AND
THANK HEAVEN THE MINIMUM WAGE
LAW WAS INEFFECTIVE, AND I COULD
FIND JOBS.
NEIL: SINCE THEY CAME UP WITH
THAT FIX, THE DISPARITY REALLY
INCREASED.
OTHERS, THOSE WHO DON'T AGREE
WITH YOU, SAY IT HAD NOTHING TO
DO WITH THAT.
I'LL JUST LEAF THAT DEBATE OUT
THERE -- LEAVE THAT DEBATE OUT
THERE.
YOU DO MENTION OTHER FIXES WHERE
THE GOVERNMENT HAS GOTTEN
INVOLVED.
WHEN IT COMES FOR HOUSING -- TO
HOUSING, FOR EXAMPLE, LATER IN
YOUR BOOK YOU SAY WHY A FAMILY'S
DECISION TO LIVE IN EXPENSIVE
SAN FRANCISCO SHOULD BE
SUBSIDIZED BY THE TAXPAYERS --
[LAUGHTER]
THIS IS ONE OF MY FAVORITE PARTS
OF THE BOOKS, INCLUDING WITH
FAMILY INCOMES OF UNDER $100,000
IS A QUESTION THAT DOES NOT EVEN
ARISE IN THIS CONTEXT WHERE
WORDS WERE ARBITRARY MEETINGS
AND CONSEQUENCES GUIDE
GOVERNMENT DECISIONS.
IN OTHER WORDS, THOSE SAME
PEOPLE HAVE THE OPTION OF NOT
LIVING IN SAID CITY, SAN
FRANCISCO.
BUT IT ALMOST SEEMS CALLOUS TO
SAY THAT THEY CAN'T.
YOU SAY?
>> WELL, YES, BECAUSE THEY --
THE GOVERNMENT HAS DEFINED LOW
INCOME PEOPLE AS FAMILIES MAKING
LESS THAN $100,000 WHO LIVE IN
SAN FRANCISCO.
BECAUSE OF THE HIGH RENTS IN SAN
FRANCISCO AND THE HIGH COST OF
HOUSING IN THE GENERAL.
BUT WHERE, BUT PEOPLE WHO ARE
MAKING LESS THAN $100,000 A YEAR
ARE HAVING TO PAY TAXES SO
PEOPLE CAN CHOOSE TO LIVE IN
THIS EXTREMELY EXPENSIVE PLACE
WHEN THERE ARE LOTS OF OTHER
PLACES IN THE UNITED STATES
WHERE YOU CAN LIVE DECENTLY
WITHOUT MAKING 100 GRAND A YEAR.
NEIL: WHAT IS IT IN STATISTICS,
AND YOU JUST PRESENT A
BLITZKRIEG OF DATA THAT I FOUND
VERY INTERESTING, ANECDOTAL AND
KIND OF AN EYE-POPPING MOMENT,
YOU REFERRED TO THE FACT WHEN IT
COMES TO GOLF, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT
MOST PROS NEVER WIN A SINGLE PGA
CHAMPIONSHIP, YET JUST THREE
GOLFERS -- ARNOLD PALMER, JACK
NICKLAUS, TIGER WOODS -- BETWEEN
THEM HAVE WON OVER 200 PGA
TOURNAMENTS.
AND STATISTICALLY YOU SEE
VARIATIONS OF THIS IN ALMOST
EVERY MAJOR SPORT, INDUSTRY,
WHAT HAVE YOU.
WHY DOES THAT HAPPEN, AND WHY
DID YOU CHOOSE TO MENTION IT IN
THE CONTEXT OF DISCRIMINATION
AND DISPARITIES?
>> BECAUSE OF THE ASSUMPTION
THAT THERE WOULDN'T BE
DISPARITIES UNLESS SOMEBODY WAS
DOING SOMEBODY WRONG.
AND YOU SEE THOSE DISPARITIES
EVERYWHERE YOU LOOK.
ONE OF THE -- IN NATURE ITSELF.
YEAH, MOST PEOPLE ARE UNA --
UNAWARE THAT NEARLY 90% OF THE
TORNADOES IN ALL THE WORLD OCCUR
IN ONE COUNTRY, AND THAT'S THE
UNITED STATES.
YOU DON'T HEAR ABOUT TORNADOES
IN CHINA OR FRANCE.
AND IT'S BECAUSE TORNADOES
REQUIRE A LOT OF FACTORS TO COME
TOGETHER.
AND ALL THOSE FACTORS ARE SPREAD
OUT AROUND THE WORLD.
BUT ONLY IN ONE PLACE DO YOU
FIND ALL OF THEM COMING TOGETHER
AT THE SAME TIME.
AND SO THAT'S WHERE THE GREAT
BULK OF THE TORNADOES OCCUR.
BUT IT'S THAT WAY WITH MANY
OTHER THINGS.
THERE ARE ALL KINDS OF FACTORS
GOING INTO MOST MEANINGFUL
EFFORTS.
AND UNLESS YOU GET ALL OF THEM
COMING TOGETHER, YOU DON'T GET
SUCCESS IN THAT ENDEAVOR.
NEIL: YOU KNOW, I'M REMINDED
JOHN KENNEDY SAID LIFE IS I
SAIDICLY UNFAIR, REFERRING AT
THE TIME TO THOSE WHO SERVE IN
WAR AT HOME, YOU KNOW, PUSHING
PAPERS.
I'M VASTLY TRIVIALIZING HIS
REMARKS AND THOSE WHO SERVE
ELSEWHERE.
ROBERT KENNEDY, HIS BROTHER,
FAMOUSLY SAID WHEN IT CAME TO
WELFARE THAT WE MUST FIND AN
ALTERNATIVE TO THAT, AND WORK IS
THAT.
TWO NOTED LIBERALS THERE WHO
JUST HAD A DIFFERENT VIEW OF
THINGS.
YOU MENTIONED EARLY IN THE BOOK
ABOUT THIS STUDY, I THINK THE
EARLY PART OF THE LAST CENTURY,
ON NEARLY 1500 PEOPLE WITH IQs
OF 140 OR MORE, WHICH IS ABOUT
130 POINTS MORE THAN MY IQ, FOR
EXAMPLE.
[LAUGHTER]
AND YET OF THAT GROUP, 20% I
GUESS WHATEVER THEY DID IN LIFE
WAS DEEMED DISAPPOINTING
CONSIDERING HOW SMART THEY WERE.
COULD THE GOVERNMENT HAVE HELPED
THAT?
COULD THE GOVERNMENT HAVE
IMPROVED THOSE ODDS FOR THIS --
>> NO.
ONE OF THE FACTORS THAT WAS
MISSING AMONG THOSE PEOPLE WAS
SOMETHING LIKE 30% OF THEIR
PARENTS, 30% OF THEM HAD AT
LEAST ONE PARENT WHO HAD QUIT
SCHOOL BEFORE THE EIGHTH GRADE.
SO THEY'RE BRILLIANT, BUT
THEY'RE NOT BROUGHT UP THE SAME
AS PEOPLE WHOSE PARENTS HAVE
GONE TO COLLEGE, WHO HAVE BOOKS,
MAGAZINES AND ALL THE THINGS
THAT GO INTO SUCCESS IN LATER
LIFE AND, THEREFORE, HAVING --
BEING THE TOP 1 OF IQ WAS JUST
NOT ENOUGH TO CUT IT.
NEIL: SO IS THE GOVERNMENT
THERE -- DOES IT HAVE A
RESPONSIBILITY TO STEP IN AND
SAY YOU HAVE A GENIUS CHILD, YOU
BECAUSE OF YOUR, APPEARANCE
MIGHT NOT SEE -- EXPERIENCE
MIGHT NOT SEE THE IMPORTANCE OF
THAT AND HOW UNIQUE HIS OR HER
SET OF BRAINS IS, BUT WE WILL
TAKE --
>> THE GOVERNMENT IS VERY
UNLIKELY TO DO THAT.
WHAT THE GOVERNMENT IS FAR MORE
LIKELY TO DO IS TO SUBSIDIZE BAD
BEHAVIOR SO THAT MORE AND MORE
CHILDREN FROM LOW INCOME
BACKGROUNDS HAVE ONLY ONE
PARENT, WHICH IS REALLY A
TREMENDOUS HANDICAP.
NEIL: YEAH.
>> AND SO THE THINGS THAT THEY
TEND TO SUBSIDIZE ARE USUALLY
THINGS THAT ARE
COUNTERPRODUCTIVE.
NEIL: YOU KNOW, YOU'RE GOING TO
GET A LOT OF HEAT ON THIS BOOK,
AS YOU HAVE AND HAVE DEALT WELL
KEPTLY IN THE PAST ON SOME OTHER
BOOKS, BUT YOU DO TALK ABOUT
THOSE WHO ARE KINGMAKERS FOR A
TIME AREN'T NECESSARILY GOING TO
BE FOR ALL TIME.
I THINK YOU MENTIONED EASTMAN
KODAK AND HOW IT RULED THE FILM
WORLD, AND HOW DIGITAL
TECHNOLOGY CAME ALONG, AND THEY
COMPLETELY MISSED THE BOAT.
WHAT WERE YOU TRYING TO SAY
THERE?
>> I WAS TRYING TO POINT OUT IF
YOU HAVE MULTIPLE PRERECKREQUIST
YOU HAVE MULTIPLE PRERECKREQUISS
YOU HAVE MULTIPLE PRERECKREQUIS,
THEN MISSING JUST ONE OF THOSE
PREREQUISITES CAN DROP YOU FROM
THE TOP TO THE BOTTOM, AND
THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED WITH
EASTMAN KODAK.
THEY WERE WORLDWIDE.
I BOUGHT KODAK FILM IN LONDON,
PARIS, SINGAPORE, SYDNEY --
NEIL: RIGHT.
>> -- ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD.
AND THEY HAD, OH, 140,000
EMPLOYEES AROUND THE WORLD.
AND IN JUST, OH, ABOUT A DECADE
OR SO THEY WENT FROM THAT TO
BANKRUPTCY.
NEIL: NO, YOU'RE RIGHT.
>> KODAK IS OUT OF THE
PHOTOGRAPHIC BUSINESS NOW.
I THINK THERE'S SOME LITTLE
REMMING SIGNIFICANT THAT DOES --
REMNANT THAT DOES SOMETHING ELSE
NOW.
NEIL: YOU'RE A LITTLE BIT OLDER
THAN I, BUT I WOULD IMAGINE I
HAD MORE ADVANTAGES, NOT JUST
THE COLOR OF MY SKIN, BUT TO ME
THAT DIDN'T GO TO YOU.
SO A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO HEAR THIS
MINORITY, MINORITIES IN GENERAL
MIGHT SAY, WELL, IT'S EASY FOR
THOMAS SOWELL TO SAY SO NOW, HE
IS A HUGE DEAL.
HE IS AN INTERNATIONAL
BESTSELLER, HE IS ONE OF THE
GREAT MINDS OF THIS CENTURY, BUT
HIS, HIS IS A POTENTIAL CASE.
AND -- A SPECIAL CASE.
AND HE SHOULDN'T IGNORE THE
OPPORTUNITY FOR GOVERNMENT TO
MAKE MORE SPECIAL CASES.
YOU SAY WHAT?
>> THE FACT THAT GOVERNMENT HAS
AN OPPORTUNITY TO DO THE RIGHT
THING IN NO WAY GUARANTEES IT
WON'T DO THE WRONG THING.
YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT WHAT
POLITICAL INCENTIVES ARE.
AND THE POLITICAL INCENTIVES ARE
FOR THEM TO DO THINGS THAT LOOK
GOOD RIGHT NOW.
YOU CAN RUN UP AN ENORMOUS SET
OF EXAMPLES OF WHERE THEY STEP
INTO A SITUATION AND JUST RUIN
IT.
AND I THINK THAT -- AND THAT'S
NOT JUST CONFINED TO THE UNITED
STATES.
YOU CAN SEE THE VERY SAME
PHENOMENON IN ENGLAND, IN NEW
ZEALAND, YOU NAME IT.
NEIL: THOMAS SOWELL, I THANK YOU
FOR THIS BOOK, "DISCRIMINATION
AND DISPARITIES."
IT DOES MAKE YOU THINK, NO
MATTER THE COLOR OF YOUR SKIN,
ABOUT THE RESPONSIBILITY OF
GOVERNMENT OF AND WHETHER IT CAN
COMPOUND A BAD SITUATION AND
MAKE IT WORSE, AS HE SEEMS TO
INDICATE, AND GIVES ALARMING
PROOF IN CASES, ONE RIGHT AFTER