David in St. Charles County, Missouri, listening on 1460 AM.
David, what’s your challenge for Karlo Broussard?
Well, Karlo, I like you, so this is nothing personal, but I think I’ve got you on this
question.
Well, I like you too, brother.
I don’t know who you are, but I like you as well, my friend, because I assume you’re
a brother in Christ.
So thanks for calling us.
Yesterday, Jim Blackburn was on.
Okay.
On Catholic Answers, and there was a caller who came on there, I mean, he asked about
coming to Jesus, and Jim Blackburn said, “Well, you can come to Jesus through Mary.”
And, you know, the more I thought about that, it’s like, you gotta be kidding me.
Cause, if you refer in Hebrews 4:14-16, I’ll condense it for you, it says Jesus is our
great high priest.
He passed through the Heavens.
So he can sympathize with our weaknesses.
Tested in all points as we are, yet without sin, so, yes, that verse 16 sums it up: “Let
us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace
to help in time of need.”
Sure.
To say that you come to Jesus through Mary, to me is almost blasphemous; because here’s
the divine son of God, that he says—the writer of Hebrews says we can “come to him
boldly” to find “help in time of need.”
And so that is the gist of my question.
Okay.
Alright, well, thanks for the question, David.
Let me ask you this, David: let’s say we’re—we’re already friends on the air—but let’s say
we’re friends in person, and we’re journeying in life together, and you’re the Christian
and I’m the non-Christian and you wanna bring me to Jesus, David.
And so let’s say you evangelize me.
Man, you start quoting Scripture to me, and you talkin’ about Jesus, and you’re evangelizing
me, and I say, “I wanna come to Jesus!”
Now David, when you lead me in maybe a sinner’s prayer, or when you tell me to confess Jesus
as Lord and Savior and to give my life over to him, would that be blasphemous, for YOU
to lead me to Jesus?
Well, it would not be blasphemous, because I’m just a person quoting the Scripture
to him, I’m not a mediator.
He doesn’t have to come through me, I’m just showing him where the divine Word’s
at.
Well, wouldn’t it be true that you ARE a mediator, because you—I could—you COULD
tell me, David, “Hey Karlo, I just want you to go straight to Jesus, and go pray to
Jesus.”
And even if you would say that, you wouldn’t even lead me in a sinner’s prayer, you would
still be interceding in some sense and mediating, because God would be moving your heart—by
grace, of course—and you, David, would be responding to that grace to lead me to Jesus,
either by telling me “Go pray by yourself in private,” or “Pray X, Y, Z,” “Pray
A, B, C;” however you do it, you would in some—isn’t it true that in some sense
you would be an instrument or a vessel of God’s grace that’s moving me to conversion?
Would you agree with that?
Yes, in a sense, but I would not be telling him, “You’d have to find somebody else
to go through,” just “Listen to what Jesus said,” you know, “Come unto me, all you
who labor and are heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.”
Okay.
You don’t have to go through another mediator, since he is our mediator.
I might be helping a person.
Sure.
I might be helping the person, but they’re not coming through me, they’re going to
Jesus, who is their Lord and Savior once they get baptized and everything else.
So I’m just an instrument.
Okay, so I would agree with you, David; you’re just an instrument.
But here’s the key, David: our Catholic understanding of “going to Jesus through
Mary,” as perhaps Jim Blackburn said—I didn’t hear the radio show, but perhaps
he did say that—that would be no different than you responding to God’s grace to help
me come to Jesus Christ.
It’s not that going through Mary, or asking a saint to lead us to Jesus, or me asking
you, David, to lead me to Jesus—in no way would that take away from the glory of Jesus
Christ.
Because, David, in virtue of your baptism—I’m assuming, I’m gonna assume you’re validly
baptized—you’re a member of Christ’s body.
You’re a Christian, you’re a member of the Church.
Now Mary and all of the saints in Heaven, David, guess what: they didn’t cease to
be members of Christ’s body, according to Romans 8:35-37
or 38.
Death does not separate us from the love of Christ—the love of God, which is in Christ
Jesus.
So Mary and the saints are still members of the mystical body of Christ, David; and so
just as you, David, a member of Christ’s body, can intercede, can mediate, can cooperate
with God’s grace to lead me to Jesus, so too, the perfected members of Jesus’ body
in Heaven, namely Mary and the saints, etc., they can also respond to God’s grace and
lead me to Jesus through their prayers.
So when we, as Catholics, when we say “go to Jesus through Mary—” David, perhaps
we’re getting lost in the semantics here and our understanding of that terminology—as
Catholics, when we say that, we do not mean that in any way different than what we would
mean by saying, “Hey David, take me to Jesus.”
And David, through your intercessory prayer, and through your help, I—it’s more likely—I’m
gonna have a better relationship with Jesus through your instrumentality, through you
working with me, because you can help me, you can teach me.
So too with the perfected members in the body of Christ.
Through their prayers, through their intercession, through their help, I can come to Jesus in
a more profound way.
Why?
Because they’re perfected in righteousness, and as James 5:16 says, “The prayer of a
righteous man avails much.”
So their prayers, their help, is gonna have far more power in effecting my relationship
with Jesus than even yours, David, because you’re still working…as Philippians 2:12
says, working out your salvation, there’s sins still in your life you’re working with;
but the members in Heaven, they’re perfected in righteousness.
They have no sin.
So their prayers are gonna be more helpful.
So I would just say, David, in conclusion, that the intercessory role of Mary and the
saints in Heaven in no way takes away from Jesus’ unique mediation, but it establishes
it, because they participate in it in a more perfect way than you or I can in this life.
Thank you, David.