- They're making a whole big thing out of a child's show.
- People just need to get over it.
There's worse things in the world than a boy dating a boy
and a girl dating a girl.
♪ (playful intro) ♪
- (FBE) So for this episode, we first want to ask you
do you know who these characters are?
- Yeah. I don't know their names but I know who they are.
- I don't know their names but I know that they're on, I think,
Sesame Street.
- Bert and Ernie?
I was a little kid once.
- Oh! There was something on the news.
The writer said that they were a gay couple.
- (FBE) So who are they to each other? What's their relationship?
- Best friends.
- Best friends?
- Are they brothers?
- I'm pretty sure they're brothers or best friends.
I remember when I was little, they used to sleep
in the same room.
- I really don't know.
It's been so long.
- (FBE) So there have been people who have thought that the pair
might actually be dating each other and are living together as a couple.
- Oh.
- Hmmm? Oh, okay. Maybe.
- Okay, that's... mm-hmm.
They should totally think about that for a kid show.
- (FBE) In general, what do you think about that?
- It didn't really matter to me when I was little
because I knew they were puppets.
- I am just a little shocked.
It's kind of weird.
It's kind of weird how people think that now,
but I don't think little kids know about love yet.
- It's really important that we open up
to different things and I think it's really cool
that people would have that point of view on this.
- Not tons of people expected it and it's such a huge show to have that
and it's also for a younger audience, so kids from a really young age
will get to be exposed to it and know about it.
- I don't see any problems with it.
It's how they want to live, so let them live like that.
There's nothing wrong because they're just people
like all of us.
- (FBE) Why do you think they do get worked up
because I even remember a time when we were talking about
the old animated short "In a Heartbeat"--
- Oh, yeah. - (FBE) You had some reservations
about showing characters like that.
- (FBE) Do you think it's important though
to show people who are different? - Yes.
- (FBE) So why wouldn't you want to show these people
who are different? - I have no idea.
Some people don't really understand.
Me, I don't really understand why it happens. It just happens.
- (FBE) So since then, you've felt differently?
Do you think there should be gay characters
in content that kids watch? - Not in every single show where
it gets all crazy and boom, but maybe just a couple of them.
Please, people, don't hate me on this, but that's my opinion.
If it's a show that's trying to accept all backgrounds
like Sesame Street, then I see no problem.
- (FBE) Well, last week, a lot of adults
made this whole thing go viral, so we have a news report to show you.
- Oh, wow.
- (Ernie) Here fishy, fishy, fishy! - (laughing)
- (reporter) Bert and Ernie. - Bert and Ernie!
- (reporter) ...created a show how different people
could get along. - (Bert) Wow! Wow!
Ernie, that's terrific. Let me try, okay?
- (reporter) A part of Sesame Street since it's 1969 inception--
- 1969?
- (Ernie) ♪ ...I'm awfully fond of you ♪
- I think I remember that.
- (reporter) These two muppet roommates in knitwear
have delighted generations of children and families.
- (Ernie) ♪ If I'm messy, you don't mind it ♪
♪ That's what friends are for ♪
- Well, I mean, they do live together.
- (reporter) Are Bert and Ernie more than friends?
- What tells them that they're a couple?
A lot of boys and boys go fishing.
A lot of them live in the same house.
- (reporter) Former Sesame Street writer Mark Saltzman
on an LGBTQ website asked, "Were you thinking of Bert and Ernie
as a gay couple?"
- They're making a whole big thing out of a child's show.
People these days.
- (reporter) Saltzman, who joined the show in 1984,
responded in part, "I always felt that,
without a huge agenda, when I was writing Bert and Ernie,
they were." - So they were. Wow.
- That's super cool.
- (reporter) "...when I was writing Bert and Ernie, they were."
- So it's been proved.
- Oh, so that theory is proved.
- (reporter) Saltzman's recollection set it off on social media.
- Really?
- (reporter) Reaction Tuesday included this from Muppeteer Frank Oz,
who created Bert and Ernie to showcase his comedic chemistry
with Muppet founder-- - This is very interesting.
- (reporter) "It's fine that he feels they are.
They're not, of course." - Okay, so they're not.
But are they?
- (reporter) "Does it really matter?" - No, it doesn't really matter.
- No, it does not matter. I think that's good
that Frank Oz said that.
- (reporter) ...and brought responses from Sesame Workshop.
The first declaring in part that Bert and Ernie
quote "remain puppets and do not have a sexual orientation."
- Yeah, they're just puppets.
- Yeah, they're puppets. What else can they do?
- (reporter) ...like Ernie after a sleepless night...
- (Ernie) ♪ We'll dance ourselves to sleep ♪
- (reporter) ...that topic has been put to bed.
- I think it's pretty cool that they're also doing
a news thing on it.
I think that they think it's important.
I think that's good.
- They're making this whole big deal out of a Muppet show
for four-year-olds.
- I've seen a lot of cartoons on Nickelodeon
start to add gay couples, like The Loud House.
- It seems like it's a big deal but if you
really, really think about it, I don't think it's a huge deal.
- People have different opinions, so maybe they should
just kinda settle it and people would go on based on their belief
and not start a whole big media fad about it.
- People just need to get over it.
There's worse things in the world than a boy dating a boy
and a girl dating a girl.
There really are.
- (FBE) Well, after they released the previous statement,
Sesame Workshop released a second statement
and we have that for you to read now. - Okay.
- "Sesame Street has always stood for inclusion and acceptance.
It's a place where people of all cultures and backgrounds
are welcome."
- If they did say that they were a gay couple,
they might get a lot of backlash from people who don't agree with that
but if they say that they aren't, then people probably
won't agree to that, like why can't they be?
So I feel like if it's up for interpretation,
it might be better for the company.
- "Bert and Ernie were created to be best friends
and to teach young children that people can get along
with those who are very different from themselves."
- This is a kid's show.
I don't think they should really be talking about this.
How are three-year-olds gonna know-- can tell if some people
are best friends or they're gay.
- It doesn't matter if they're gay or not.
They're still just puppets that have a personality.
- Oh, are Bert and Ernie gay in Sesame Street?
Who cares?
You need to care about the law, people!
Care about the government! Care about the army!
Care about your entire nation!
- Why do they care if they are gay?
It's just a children's show!
We're all human beings.
You don't have to like a person. You just have to respect them.
- To me, that feels like they're kind of putting
the idea away.
Honestly, if people want to believe Bert and Ernie were dating,
then believe Bert and Ernie were dating.
- (FBE) So before we talk more about this,
what do you think about adults making such a big deal
out of this show for kids?
- I think it's kinda dumb.
This is not worth an argument.
- Just forget it! It's a children's show!
It's made for children to teach them stuff,
not for grownups to go about saying, "Are they gay?!"
- It's a show.
Their kids won't really understand it until they're older.
Always, adults make big deals out of anything.
No offense.
- It's kind of dumb.
They're making this big giant deal over a child's show
and the children that watch it don't even care if they're gay or not.
They just want to watch a show.
- The world's changing at a very fast rate
and I think for grownups who maybe grew up
in a different time and era, who lived with different rules,
think that this might be a little weird,
but to us kids, this is our era.
This is what we're going through right now.
- (FBE) So Sesame Street premiered in 1969,
meaning that people who are currently 54 years old
might have watched the premier when they were kids
and are still watching the show today. - What?
- Aah, that's crazy how two whole generations
could be watching it together.
- (FBE) Do you think it's important for a popular kid's show
like Sesame Street to have characters who are both gay and not gay or no?
- I think it is important.
If somebody is gay and they're watching it,
then they'll feel-- sometimes they'll feel offended
that there's normally not gay or people like that in the show,
so it's fair to include both.
- Yes, they should.
They should incorporate all types of couples.
- I actually do think that's kinda important
to show relationships, how they feel about each other.
- Kids should know these things and not grow up to be
like, "That's weird and ew."
No, they should be okay with that.
I think that's great.
- It really doesn't make sense if they're like, "Oh, the Muppets.
We're not going to pay attention to that
when Kermit and Piggy are dating," and then we start going nuts
if the people in Sesame Street, two of them are gay.
- If a kid who's maybe feeling a certain way
and doesn't want to talk about it, maybe sees Sesame Street
with a gay couple, maybe they'll be like,
okay, I can talk about this with my parents
or I can open up, I can be brave,
I can talk about this.
It's okay to like a different sex.
It's okay.
- It's fine if they do have characters that, I mean,
I feel like you don't have to make a character gay just because
so you can get more popularity.
I mean, I don't think that's a good idea,
but if you really want your story to be about that
and it adds to the character and you want it,
not just for popularity, I think it could definitely be
a good idea.
And if you're a kids show, it exposes it to kids
so they understand it from a young age.
- They don't really need to know about these kind of things yet.
They shouldn't be learning this until they're nine or ten!
It's okay for you to have a crush on someone
and like them and just-- but you should wait
until you're a little older. - (FBE) Okay.
Do you think it's okay for kids to learn about straight relationships?
- Well, maybe. - (FBE) Okay.
Why would it be any different if it's a gay relationship?
If it was a gay relationship, I think it's okay.
Basically, it's actually okay because then children know
that if you like a boy and you're a boy, it's okay.
- (FBE) There's not really that many gay characters
in kids shows.
Can you think of any gay characters in shows that you watch?
- Not one, no.
- I don't think so.
- I don't really think so.
- I can't think of actually any.
- No, I can't think of any.
- I know The Loud House has some gay characters.
I know Steven Universe did.
- Miraculous Ladybug.
I watched it and I'm like, hey, I see no problem with
these two boys liking each other.
They both have similar personalities.
- Voltron: Legendary Defender, there's a bunch of rumors
going on about that, that there's a gay couple in that.
Oh, Star Versus the Forces of Evil.
I watch that show all the time.
It's a concert scene and they're in the concert
and then it's like a love song and everybody kisses,
and they had a bunch of girls kissing girls
and guys kissing guys and I thought that was awesome
from the moment I saw that.
I was like, that's awesome. That's really cool
of Disney to actually do that.
- The Loud House.
At the end of the show, that Lincoln Loud's best friend
said I'm so glad that I have two best dads in the world.
I think that meant that even if you don't have a mom,
or even if you don't have a dad, it's still okay because
they're still your parents.
- (FBE) Why do you think adults who make kid's shows
don't usually showcase gay characters in TV shows?
- Probably because they don't think that kids
would understand it.
They generally think kids are dumb.
- They are scared of getting a lot of backlash from it
and I feel like they don't want it to ruin their whole show
just so they can have the representation,
but personally I feel like it would give their show
more popularity because, of course, they're gonna get hate from it,
but a lot of people are gonna start watching
the show because they have that.
- They want their kids to be straight, not gay because maybe
the parents think it's just wrong for them.
But, hey, they've never been gay, but I've never been lesbian
but, I mean, I understand the point because a lot of kids
probably hate gay people and it's kinda sad
because they're humans too.
They should be kind.
They shouldn't hate on anybody.
No one really deserves to be hated unless they're
really, really bad people.
- Adults are scared.
This is foreign to them and they're having-- a lot of people
are having a hard time right now accepting that maybe
gay marriage is legal and I think it's awful
that kids feel like they can't open up about what they're feeling
to their parents.
Your parents should always be the most important thing in your life
and everybody always thinks kids can't do things
because we're kids. No, we can do anything.
We're the future generation.
This is an important topic that all kids should be able
to listen and question and talk about.
- (FBE) So finally, as a kid, do you think that there should be
more characters who are gay and diverse in shows for kids?
- I definitely do, 100%.
Kids need to know these things. They need to.
It's part of their world.
- Yes, to show more of a relationship.
- Yes, because there's literally no gay characters
in any shows that I watch.
It's just embarrassing for those people who are gay.
- I think so because that way more kids can see it
and so it isn't such a strange thing when you get older, you know,
because there are a lot of gay people in the world,
so when you're older you're not like, what is this?
What is this thing I haven't been exposed to for my whole life?
- Of course, yes.
No matter if we watch shows with gay couples in them or not,
we're still gonna think about these things
and we're still gonna question.
We're kids. We're gonna question things.
That's what we do. We're curious.
It's important that us kids grow up knowing that
everybody is included.