>> All right, we're going to start
our next fireside chat
with one of my favorite people on the planet.
It's real when you
have to pull out your phone for notes because they
are so accomplished and have done
so many wonderful things on the planet.
Kishonna L. Gray is up with us right now.
Everybody give a round of applause
to Kishonna L. Gray, please.
Kishonna has written in
note form in English, Spanish, and Algonquin,
and Esperanto, a wonderful book called Race,
Gender, and Deviance in Xbox Live.
You also have a book that is coming out soon. When?
>> I do, falls, November 2018.
>> On Being Black and in Contemporary Gaming Culture,
The Journey to Intersectionality, that is fantastic.
I'm super happy to have you here.
>> Thank you for having me.
>> How has your GDC been?
How have you been? How are things going?
>> It has been good. So, I specifically
came for this event.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah and I was kind of yeah! Absolutely.
>> Shout out too.
>> Shout out to Melissa too for the invite.
>> Much love to Melissa and Ciara in the back.
>> Yes. So, it's my first GDC.
>> Really?
>> Never been, never came, but it's cool.
>> Yeah.
>> It's a different vibe because I
mostly do like academic kind of conference spaces,
I don't really do like industry ones.
So, I really enjoy,
and I don't want to take up space either.
As an academic, it's not my lane,
without my lanes early I'm in different lines,
so I'm really excited about interacting and engaging
with a lot of folks who are doing
really amazing things out in gaming,
so I'm really excited to be here.
>> We're really super happy to have you
because you do amazing work.
>> Thank you.
>> So, I came across your work
through Tania Dupuis, who's also here.
She was like, "Kishonna is super dope."
Do you have a show about "Blackness", and about "Gaming",
and about "Intersectionality", and
about "Statistics" it was almost that nerd,
and she said, "Kishonna needs to be on your show."
We had our first show that had Kishonna and
[inaudible] called "The Blackademic show."
>> That was a good show.
>> Which was fantastic. It is to this day,
one of my favorite episodes of the show because,
we got to chop it up in a way
that most gaming shows or
conversations don't get to to jump into, right?
>> Absolutely.
>> Through the years of your work,
what have been some of the kind
of overarching narratives that you've seen,
in terms of being people of color in the industry,
being marginalized folks in the industry.
And give the folks in the audience and at home
a little bit of information
about some of the work you've been doing.
>> Absolutely. So, I think one of
the overarching kind of things is like,
we were talking earlier about this "Unicorn",
"Mythical" kind of phenomenon, right?
How people just don't think we're in the spaces,
they don't think we make games,
they don't think we play games.
So in academia is the same thing because I think,
I just saw some numbers like
only two percent of the population
actually have like a PhD,
so it's a very small number.
And so the visibility of people of color,
and women of color in particular is already small.
So, when they see us,
it's kind of like the Unicorn effect.
And then when I tell them I research
video games even more they're like, "Wait a minute",
so there are all these layers happening and we
don't understand how to make sense of you, right now.
>> Right.
>> But it's been good. I found
my spaces, I found my people,
I found the places that value me and value my work.
And so, one of the things that I wanted to
really focus on was "Centering"
because I don't focus as my research
is like on representations like in games,
like the amazing work like Tanya does.
So I side her frequently,
the things that she's doing.
My focus is more so on "Gamers",
so the people who are in these spaces
centering and highlighting their stories.
So the book that I had "Race, Gender,
and Deviance in Xbox Live" it focused on
specifically black and African-American
and Puerto Rican gamers in
particular like focusing on their narratives,
their experiences with racism,
sexism, ableism, heterosexism, or homophobia,
all that stuff really seeing how
the space kind of like facilitates a lot of these isms.
But also how this space kind of like affords
the possibilities of community building
and connecting with other people.
So, like for queer gamers in particular,
they have created these beautiful spaces like
an Xbox Live and PlayStation that are working in
other places, is there an embargo?
Can I say that?
>> No.
>> Okay, but anyway, in Xbox Live,
they really created these amazing spaces,
where they're taking care of each other,
where they're able to navigate
different aspects of their identity.
And so it's really like this amazing
like digital identity development
happening and it's like
a lot of beautiful community building.
And I'm just, I consider myself like an archivist,
I'm just documenting that.
I never want to take up too much space in there.
I dismantle the power hierarchies and everything,
and so I'm just archiving what's
already there and it's some
beautiful and it's some dopeness that's happening,
so I'm really thankful for folks
that allowed me into those spaces.
I write about you
know I need the worse game all the time,
I write about "Follow me" all the time.
So you were in my book
about the "Dope things" that happened.
I'm sure there are folks like,
I'm so sorry. He's so stubborn.
>> Thank you.
>> But I want to make sure that the industry knows,
the academia knows, that the public knows about us.
The hidden figures like in gaming,
I think that's really important that we spend on those.
So that's what I use my platform for mostly.
>> One of the things I love about your work is,
we have this conversation often about,
gaming is a very young medium, right?
In our lifetimes, I'll be 40 this year.
So in our lifetimes,
we have seen nothing,
grow into a multibillion dollar industry,
and as we've seen in most conversations about History,
about Black Accomplishment, and Black Achievement,
a lot of times those things are left out
in the history books, right?
We're doing a wonderful thing here
acknowledging Jerry Lawson,
but I feel like there are so many sisters
that we never hear about,
there are so many people that we don't
hear about in those spaces.
In your research, what is some
of the things you found that have been
kind of touchstones that you want to
share with the folks at home about like,
"How we have been a part of
the culture for since its inception?".
>> Absolutely. One of the stories that I love
telling and it came from Anna Everett.
Anna Everett, she's a really amazing scholar,
she's at UC Santa Barbara I believe.
So she highlighted basically how
black and brown kids in the Inner City with
Arcade's save the gaming industry.
Like that doesn't get talked about a whole lot.
So the gaming industry was tanking, right?
And so the fact that you know we
were spending our quarters in
the Arcades and these Bodega and
these Corn stores that saved the industry,
because they were looking of course analytics,
I'll go a head and throw that,
that was being thrown around a lot.
They were looking at the numbers.
They were looking at how much money
is being spent and they said, "Okay,
so let's not give up on this console thing
just yet" because I think there may be something to it.
So I think that's one of the stories that
doesn't get told, really how innovative,
especially how black and brown kids
really were a driving force
in console gaming and getting games inside at the home.
So I think that that's really important.
And there's also some very class and
race distinctions like in games that we play.
So people often ask me,
"Why my focus is like on console gaming."
We didn't have access to computers growing up,
a lot of us didn't have access to a lot of that stuff.
So you had to have money to have video cards,
graphic cards, all that stuff,
the stuff that I don't know,
and you know if you're thinking like
your mom could save us some money and get to like
a Sega like a Christmas and then that's
the technology that you have.
And so I think that's also important to how wide,
how console gaming has been very
much developed like around race and class distinctions.
And also something that I realized
Mexican-American kids are like
a huge consumers of
gaming and they don't get talked about,
they get excluded a lot,
nobody really focuses on
their consumption practices like within gaming.
So those are some of the things that I want to highlight
and center like in my work,
making sure that people know
about these different stories.
>> I mean, gosh console gaming
was my gateway drug into computer science,
into being techie into
looking at things that were in that space.
I'm sure it was for you as well.
>> Absolutely.
>> Sidetrack, what was your first console?
>> Nintendo.
>> Yeah.
>> My own?
>> Yeah.
>> Sega was my own. So mama bought
me one, but before that,
brother had Atari, brother and cousin had Nintendo,
but my own was I had a Sega.
>> Yes.
>> So, the "Push" button when I know there
was one like the first we had the Switch" button,
but I had the "Push" button maybe like
the second generation Sega or something.
So Sega was, that was my personal one.
>> That's fantastic.
>> Yes. And it's interesting.
I want to make a comment. It's interesting.
My friend is here.
So we were like we're from Rural Kentucky.
We're not from a City, we're excluded from
Arcade culture and it was interesting like
the communities that we develop really like around
gaming and Black Rural Communities.
So for instance, we couldn't afford a console,
so he would have like the Nintendo 64,
so everybody would go to like his house and play.
I had the Sega, I gather people at different things,
so it was interesting like these networks and
communities that we will build,
so should be excluded from
City Centers that where you
saw like a lot of the cool game and have it.
I said that shout out on my friend
Terrence because we have
been like gamers like.
>> Hi Terrence.
>> When you look at
some of the research that you've done,
one of the things that we always
feel is an interest, well,
one thing that we know is an interesting thing
about tech-centered spaces,
is finding places where you
feel welcomed and you feel like you have community.
Do you feel like consoles in video games at
this point had been able to help foster some of that,
for folks who, when they leave their consoles,
leave their games feel like they may not have that?
Do you feel like there's been
stuff in your research that has kind of given
the idea that that is the thing that actually
sticks when it happens?
>> Yeah, absolutely. So, I
think what I've seen the most is
kind of like this trans-mediated thing happening, right?
So, we'll connect with folks like in Xbox Live,
but we're not just connected in Xbox Live,
so we'll go follow folks like on Twitter.
We'll go follow them on Facebook,
there are different social media profiles.
So, when you leave the space you
still have connections with phones.
I think it's beautiful
like the stories that like are happening,
things that are happening like in gaming spaces,
how they translate into social media.
For instance, l think we were live streaming
like Luke Cage while playing battlefield.
So, like it was really interesting things that are
happening and so I
think it's really important
that this concept of community,
I think is very important.
Like I said earlier,
a lot of people don't have those
connections in their physical space.
>> Yeah.
>> That's right. So, they have
the space of Xbox Live to go to.
So, I don't know Xbox. I thought
that we have a love hate relationship with Xbox.
I know I've been very critical
like a lot of spaces and things.
But I also think that it's been like a wonderful space to
allow a lot of this community building to happen.
>> I mean, it's an interesting thing, right?
I remember when Xbox Live first implemented chat.
So, you had voice chat and you were like, "Yo, it's lit.
We now have chat. We can talk to everyone,
talk to in our spaces."
And then the Internet became the Internet.
And that is the way it did and then that became a thing
where private chat then
became a space where you were like,
"This is where I can find community.
This is what I can do what I need to do."
In the archaeological dig of your work and when you
kind of go back and look at
the steps in which to where we've gotten here.
Are there any specific things that you look at and
say this particular moment in gaming
helps to either bridge the divide
or separate folks in a way that we hadn't seen before?
>> Private chat furthered the divide.
But so, let me explain that a little bit.
So, of course, we all know what happens
whenever they hear an accent,
they hear blackness, they hear a woman.
We know what happens in a lot of these spaces.
Now, so, we were lucky to have
the private spaces where we could
kind of isolate ourselves.
So, we didn't have to
interact and engage in those toxic environments.
But then it also get them off the hook.
The corporate stakeholders,
the different people in the spaces,
they got them off the hook to have to do
something about the toxicity in the space.
So, they're like," Okay, you're still happy?
You're happy in your private spaces.
Oh good. We don't have to deal with it."
Whenever we were integrated
back into the live environment though,
the same stuff is happening.
And so, I think that it's like I don't know,
when I've made like a new friend in XBox Live.
I haven't made a new friend in
years because I haven't connected and
interacted with anybody for years.
So, it's the same community,
it's the same group of folks.
And that's cool, but I like making friends.
I like making different kinds of connections and it's so
hard because people hear that I'm a woman,
they see my avatar and they're like,
"Oh, she's a black woman."
You know because it's cool for us because in this space,
I have standard American English,
so they think I'm a white kid.
So, it's like different dynamics that I get in so
they figure out you know who I actually am.
So, I think of course, the private space,
the private chat, it was a godsend.
I was glad to have it, so we could
actually have those different spaces.
But then on the other hand,
the toxicity is still there.
We haven't really had like any kind of
meaningful solutions to figuring that aspect out. Yeah.
>> Time is flying.
>> Is it time already?
>> We have like five minutes left.
It's already is flown.
>> Oh dang.
>> Before we let you go.
>> Yes.
>> I want to hear about the new book.
>> Oh.
>> I want to hear you tell us about the new book.
>> So, there's a couple of books coming out.
So, I have a book that I co-edited with David Leonard.
He's a really dope scholar.
He started like some of the race and gaming
scholarship back in the mid 2000s.
And so, I'm co-editing a volume and we've got
some really amazing folks who have
contributed their work into that book.
But also my own book project is on,
On Being Black and...
The Journey to Intersectionality.
It's really capturing
this digital identity formation in these spaces.
So, you know a lot of us and we don't pick and choose.
We sometimes, things happen where we have to say,
"Okay, right now my race is more salient right now.
Or right now my gender is more salient right
now or my sexuality is more salient right now."
So I know we talk about
intersectionality like a whole lot.
But in the everyday workings of our lives,
it really, it ebbs and flows.
So, I think the book is really focusing on
whenever like hashtag Black Lives
Matter when there's like a death or something.
You know how blackness becomes like salient, right?
But when Trump was elected,
gender became very salient
especially for women within the space.
So, the book is really kind of mapping
like the path where people can see,
"Hey, I am all these things.
I'm not just black, I'm not just man,
I'm not just a woman, not just queer.
I'm all these things." And they all kind of interact
and operate in tandem with one another.
So, it's kind of like tracking
the come of the Jesus story if you will.
When you've come to realize
just how dynamic the intersection of your identities are.
So, that' what I'm doing with the book. I hope you know.
It is centering Xbox Live gamers.
There's also this one chapter, do I have time?
>> Go. You got it.
>> So, there's this one chapter and it focuses on,
it's usually like the black eye aspect.
So, there's this community that I'm
a part of and so it has men
who identify as black but some of them are Nigerian,
there's some from Brazil, there's some from Puerto Rico,
some from the United States.
And so, it was a very contentious group for a long time.
But it was different deaths
that happened in these different parts
of the country especially
related to police brutality and like Brazil and the
Puerto Rico and the United States
really brought that community together.
And so, there's like a really powerful quote
that one of the brothers said,
he said, "I guess the ghetto looks the same everywhere."
And so, it kind of shows like
their paths are coming together.
You know what it was a very contentious kind
of environment efforts.
So, yeah, I love that chapter. It's really awesome.
>> You are again one of my favorite people on the planet.
Thank you so much. Everyone, Kishonna L Gray, please.
>> Thank you all for having me. Get the book.
>> Get the book.
>> Get the book now.
>> Get the book.
>> You can at Kishonna Gray, K-I-S-H-O-N-N-A G-R-A-Y.
You can probably search Unicorn Glitter
and find me on Twitter.
And I have links to all those things there.
So yeah, I appreciate that.
>> Thank you again.
>> Thank you all. Thank you for having me.
You are amazing.
I love you. Thank you so much.