Ernie Cline, welcome to The Daily Social Distancing Show.
Oh, thank you for having me. I'm a big fan.
Um, I am a major fan of yours,
not just because of, um, the work that you've done,
but because of the world you created
with the work that you've done and because of how, um--
I almost want to say, I guess how much...
truth telling you told, you know?
Even in telling a future story, it feels like
you've told the truth about the present.
Ready Player One was a smash hit,
you know, one of the best-selling books of all time,
and the movie was a smash hit, as well.
And now, Ready Player Two is a long-awaited sequel.
For those who don't know, it's the story of
a not-too-distant future
where everybody basically lives in a virtual world.
No one wants to live outdoors,
no one wants to do anything anymore,
and our true pleasure is garnered
by living inside this virtual reality,
which might have seemed farfetched when you wrote it,
but it seems like we're edging closer and closer to that.
It does. It was really shocking to me
how quickly a lot of the predictions that I made,
especially about virtual reality and the adoption
of virtual reality technology-- how quickly that happened.
Uh, uh, it's only been nine years
since Ready Player One was published,
and there was not virtual reality headsets available,
uh, when the book came out.
And now there's a bunch of different competing brands,
and, uh... and I use virtual reality all the time.
What I loved about the book is,
you wrote about what is many people's childhood dream,
you know, living in a virtual reality,
creating an avatar of yourself, flying, becoming a dragon,
you know, becoming, like, a... an iron giant, whatever it is.
But what I loved about it is,
the fantasy is couched in the reality of, you know,
in and around the toll that it has on human beings.
We see, like, real-life people not knowing how to interact.
We see people just, like, addicted to, like,
the social media side of this thing,
and to the world where they can be somebody else.
You love... you clearly love the science fiction.
You clearly love-- I mean, it's not even fiction anymore--
but you love this world.
But at the same time, you're always really careful
about making it seem like a complete fantasy.
Talk me through how you play with that
and why you think it's so important
to keep reminding the reader
of how dangerous this technology could be.
Uh, that's a great question.
I feel like all of our technology
is potentially dangerous.
It just depends on how we use it.
And, uh, and sometimes the, um, perils
of that technology don't become apparent right away.
Like, social media is relatively new, like ten... ten, 15 years,
and only now are we beginning to see the huge, uh,
sociological ramifications that it can have,
and also, just the way it can affect people personally.
Uh, and that's true of the Internet, uh, uh, in total.
Like, I think it is... It drastically altered our lives,
and it's drastically changed the way people interact
with each other in both good and bad ways.
So, I always wanted to show both sides of the technology,
-and, also, just the addictive nature of, uh... -Right.
If something's really enjoyable and really fun,
the impulse is to do it to excess.
And so, um, I always try to show, you know,
the characters struggling to-to find balance
with their love of technology,
which is something that I do in my own life.
One of the biggest reasons I'm a fan of your work is
that you did something that I've always missed
in the world of science fiction and fantasy
for so long, and that is, you have diversity.
Like, every fantasy story, I'd just be like, "Wow. Okay,
"so there's just, like, no people of color
in these fantasy worlds."
But you have a diverse cast of characters.
And what I love is, it's not forced.
You're talking about real people who play video games,
whether it's, you know, Japanese kids,
or whether it's a black woman
who's struggling with being an LGBTQIA in this world,
and she's going like, "What is my identity
in the real world and the fake world?"
You know, so, so, my question to you is, like, why...?
How did that come about? 'Cause it seemed so natural.
It doesn't seem like you're, you know, bowing to anything,
but it really informs the story and the characters.
Thank you. Well, that's part of my world view
and part of my own experience of being a gamer
and kind of venturing out. Uh...
Uh, it's one of the things I love about the Internet
and video games is that by creating an avatar,
you create this alternate idealized version of yourself,
and you have control over how other people see you.
The Internet can strip away a lot of prejudices
that way, um, uh, by allowing people
just to connect as pure intellects, you know?
Uh, and I think, uh, I think that's been a really, um, uh,
powerful thing in my own life, 'cause you can get
to know somebody and feel like you know them really well
without ever being in the same time zone.
So I think, um, the Internet can be a powerful tool
in creating empathy.
And that was something else I wanted to explore
in Ready Player Two, the idea of, uh,
this virtual reality technology allowing you
to walk a mile in somebody else's shoes.
I think a lot of the problems that we're facing right now
can be traced back to a lack of empathy,
and if there was a-a... it would be great if technology
created a way for you to, uh, see how other people feel.
You know, if people can't do it on their own,
it would be great if there was an invention
that allowed you to, uh, see the world
through other people's eyes or walk a mile in their shoes.
So, um, those are all things I wanted to weave into the story.
In Ready Player Two-- and I don't want to spoil it
for any of the fans, 'cause I would hate
if someone spoiled it for me-- but just the beginning
of the story is: what if you could be immersed,
what if you could feel what was happening in a game,
what if you could feel what somebody else was feeling?
I mean, like, one of the most interesting parts in the story
is where people are now experiencing famine,
people are experiencing somebody starving,
people are experiencing a war-torn region,
and it changes their empathy.
But what you also do in Ready Player Two
is you show how hard it is to maintain your empathy
and-and your level of just wanting to understand
when you become part of the class, you know?
You've got... you've got Percival
who is, like, this legend, who fights the man
and wins freedom of the OASIS,
but then, very quickly, he's the billionaire now.
You know? He wants to make the money,
He wants to make the moves. And it's interesting,
'cause he's not a villain, but we come to realize
how quickly you can make the wrong moves
if your... if your environment changes dramatically.
And obviously, that means, like, just being super rich.
You think very differently.
Yes. Well, I... and also, he's a teenager,
you know, and kind of becoming the CEO of...
of a huge company like Facebook or Twitter
when you're that age and maybe don't have, uh,
the wisdom to handle it.
That was something that I knew when I told the story
that these characters would all have to confront.
And, uh, because it's something that the, you know,
CEOs of all our big tech companies are confronting
the implications of their technology right now.
-Right. -And the... the...
the profound ways that it affects
even the way people think.
Already, the Internet and social media
is plugged directly into our brain in some ways,
and, uh, and it's, you know, affecting everything around us.
So, uh, I'm glad you picked up on that.
That was definitely, uh, part of the fun of telling the story.
But when you look at the real world,
you look at the Amazons, the Facebooks, the Twitters,
the, you know, Snapchats, TikToks, whatever it is,
there is no denying that they've consumed
a certain part of our brains, and they're going to inform
how we think and even see each other as human beings.
When you look at the real world, and you look at these CEOs
and these companies that they've created,
what do you hope that they'll understand
about what they've made, and what do you hope
that they'll apply to these products
to try and make them as ethical as possible
for the human race?
Uh, well, exactly what you said.
An effort, some effort to, uh, make the technology ethical
and not, uh, not just openly allow this, uh...
basically, mind control device that they've created
to be used by anyone, uh, to sow, um, uh,
the seeds of disinformation.
It's just, um, uh...
something that we've required of, like, television networks
and radio networks, uh, for decades.
But this new technology kind of rose up
without any, uh, oversight, and now it's...
seems to me that it's spiraled out of control,
and it's kind of still like the Wild, Wild West.
And now we're struggling to rein it in
at a time when it already feels like it might be too late.
Yeah. We've got to rein it in before it's too late.
Um, I could talk to you for hours about this.
I mean, because the book will... will last you for hours,
and I hope everybody goes and gets it.
If you're a fan of video games, if you're a fan of the future,
if you're a fan of the present, you're gonna love it.
Well, I appreciate you, man. Thank you so much again.
-Thank you for taking the time. -Oh, thank you.
Thank you for writing an amazing story, and for real,
thank you for including every single kid
who actually plays the video games
that they're so often excluded from.
So thank you so much for this. Thank you for your time, and,
um, I'm excited for everyone to read Ready Player Two,
and I'm excited for the next film.
Ah, thank you so much, Trevor.