Michael Finnegan is here to join us to discuss the capital riots that took
place on January 6th.
You may have seen the video that he released, his body cam video specifically
showing how he was violently assaulted by the violent mob who rioted in the Capitol
on January 6th, over the fact that their favored candidate didn't win the election.
Michael, thank you so much for joining us today.
>> Yeah, thank you guys for having me on.
>> So there's a lot I want to ask you about.
But before we get to what transpired that day and
your thoughts on how the January 6th investigations have been going.
I am curious how the experience had an impact on you ideologically,
it had a huge impact on you physically, huge impact on you mentally.
But did it have any impact at all on your politics or
more importantly, how you view the United States?
>> I mean, it made me much more cynical than I was prior to January 6th.
I mean, as far as like ideologically, no,
but I think if you read my book,
most people would be surprised to to see how nuanced
of a person I was, even before January 6th.
That being said, it made me respect or
have a deeper respect for my role and all of our roles to
play with regards to democracy in this country.
>> Absolutely.
And you mentioned your book, I wanted to name the book that you wrote.
It's titled Hold the Line, The insurrection and one cops battle for
America's soul, and you really have put yourself out there in an effort
to ensure that there would be some accountability for the individuals who
helped to incite the violence that transpired that transpired that day.
And I'm sure it came at some personal cost for you.
Considering the political climate and
the kinds of threats that politicians are dealing with,
members of the media are dealing with, I am curious following the capital riots.
Has anyone approached you in any kind of hostile or
combative way, have you dealt with any threats?
>> No, I mean, I don't think most people have the balls to confront me in public.
That being said, I get an awful lot of angry messages
directed at me on social media anonymously.
I also get a lot of angry phone calls and text messages and emails.
Some of them even threatening my life and that of members of my family.
I have had some individuals show up at addresses that
were previously associated with me in the past,
relatives of mine, my ex wife's address, things like that.
>> So just people showing up and and throwing out threats,
when do they show up or did anything escalate further than that?
>> I mean, they were looking for me.
They didn't find me, and so they just moved on.
>> The thing that's been frustrating for me personally, is watching just how
extensive the investigation into the riots were, his House select Committee,
I think has actually done a pretty great job in doing the investigation.
And then also through these public hearings,
disclosing what their findings are.
And in a recent interview, you said that there is enough evidence and
this is something a federal judge said as well to indict Donald Trump.
But as the days go on, I'm beginning to think that it's actually more likely
than not that the DOJ will avoid indicting Trump or charging Trump.
I think there's this real fear of holding a former
president accountable criminally for what he might have been involved in.
That's just my prediction in my read of the situation, but
I'm wondering if you have a different perspective.
>> I agree with you wholeheartedly.
I think that the train of thought within the Department
of Justice is just that the in weighing whether or
not pursuing criminal charges against the former
president would be too dangerous in the current climate.
I think that the DOJ would opt on the side of caution and
to steer clear of pursuing criminal charges against Donald Trump for
fear of what the retaliation might look like.
That being said, I think it's incredibly naive to think
that at this point in time in our country that by somehow modeling good behavior,
people will somehow behave well, I think we're far beyond that.
I think that the only path is accountability.
And that means that no one is above the law and
that if there's evidence that Donald Trump or any of his supporters and
allies broke the law that they need to be held accountable.
They need to be indicted and tried and
we should respect the results of those trials.
>> Yeah, I mean when you look at the history of bad behavior, potentially
illegal behavior of administrations, including there were war crimes
committed under the Bush administration and once Obama gets elected,
he says he wants to look forward, he doesn't want to look backward.
He definitely does not want to pursue any criminal charges against members of
the Bush administration based on the war crimes they might have been involved in.
And I bring that up as an example because it kind of sets a tone for
people in positions of power, especially administrations.
If you know that the incoming administration or
the justice system will shy away or completely avoid holding you accountable,
well then you're going to try to up the ante.
And I think that we saw that with Donald Trump.
I mean, why not try to overturn the election?
He's gotten away with so much already.
And it's pretty likely that even though all the individuals that he directed to
go do what they did that day, they're gonna suffer criminal consequences for it.
Some of them already have, they've already been sentenced in some cases.
Donald Trump gets to walk away, gets to walk back to the White House,
sit there, watch all the destruction as it unfolds without any real
fear of genuine consequences.
And I think you're right, if there is an accountability,
it just sends an even larger message to whoever the next president is.
And we do know that Trump is thinking about running again in 2024.
I mean, if he wins again, I can't imagine how emboldened
he would feel to really try anything to keep maintaining his power.
>> No, I mean, I couldn't agree more.
And I mean, listen, speaking to past presidencies,
like I'm not a political pundit and I'm not debating policy with anyone.
I'm not telling you to vote democrat or vote republican.
But what I am here to tell you is that in my experience on January 6th,
that was a real assault on democracy and it was carried out as
evidence brought forward by the select committee by Donald Trump and his allies.
And that there was a pre planned organized effort not just
to defraud the American people, but also to commit acts of
violence to prevent congress from certifying the election.
And what happened to me on January 6th actually happened, it's real.
And so going forward, and
this is why I think the midterms are incredibly important.
Is it's our first opportunity after January 6th to reject
fascism in this country at the ballot box.
And so I would ask Americans to take that into consideration when they go and
cast their vote, not just to think about themselves, and
what policies would best represent or best accommodate them.
But also to think about their fellow Americans and
think about the future of our democracy in this country and
what type of country you want to give to your Children?
>> Absolutely.
I mean, democracy is so fragile and I think we're starting to see that here in
the United States, I think it's something that's been taken for granted for so
long among the electorate, but it is fragile.
And all you really need is one person who refuses the peaceful transition of power.
After the riots took place that day,
there were still six Republican senators who decided to challenge the electors.
So they were undeterred, even that violence,
even the fact that people were killed that day.
You have Josh Hawley, Ted Cruz, Tommy Tuberville,
Roger Marshall John Kennedy, Cindy Hyde Smith still challenging the electors.
And in order to actually carry out a real insurrection,
you would need the institutions to kind of play along with it.
And it's terrifying to see senators still willing to do this.
There were still hundreds of members of Republican lawmakers in the House who
are still challenging the electors.
But you also need the military on your side if you want to carry out
an actual insurrection and you would need law enforcement on your side.
It appears that the majority of law enforcement present there were not on
their side, but I am concerned about some of the reports I've seen following
the capitol riots which indicate that some of these police officials and
officers had ties to right wing gangs and militias.
Can you talk a little bit about that?
There was one name that came to mind and that was a lieutenant,
a DC Police Lieutenant Shane Lehmann.
Is this something that you were at all familiar with?
Is this a widespread problem within policing?
Or is this something that's completely shocking and new to you?
>> I'm actually familiar with Shane Lamond,
I knew him at the police department, I wasn't familiar with his politics.
That being said in that particular instance and
this is a litmus test that I used for police misconduct.
Were they dumb or were they dirty?
I think that's more of a case of Shane Lemont being dumb than actually
being dirty.
That being said, it's not to dismiss the reality that law enforcement and
the military are a microcosm of society and
just like an element or a portion of our country is
completely dedicated to Donald Trump not to democracy.
I think that element also exists within the law enforcement and
military community.
In fact, I know it does, that there are individuals
who feel their loyalty lies with Donald Trump and
individual rather than democracy.
>> Why do you think that is?
I mean, I haven't seen this with any other political leader in the country,
at least as long as I've been alive.
What do you think it is about Donald Trump that would persuade
individuals who have taken an oath to this country to essentially
turn on their country and prioritize Trump before anything else.
>> I mean, I think a lot of it, and
I'll go back to my own personal experience because I voted for Donald Trump in 2016.
And when people ask me why I tell them well in 2016, I was a single issue voter,
and my issue was law enforcement.
I saw lettering rhetoric that was being spouted by democratic politicians,
and supporters of the Democratic Party,
that I found to be incredibly violent towards law enforcement.
And counterproductive towards the conversation of bringing
law enforcement and the community together.
That being said, I quickly realized that Donald Trump was full of it and
I supported Joe Biden in 2020, but there are a lot of people,
members of the military, members of law enforcement,
who liked the idea of the win at all costs candidate.
Somebody who at least espouses to support them and
is willing to set aside the rules set aside traditional,
conduct and candor and give it to the man.
People are cynical with politicians.
Congress has what a 6% approval rating.
And this was a guy that took office and got in all of their faces.
That being said, they didn't have the same experiences that many of us did.
And I don't think they really took the time to think about how
counterproductive his administration was to law enforcement and
building our relationship with the communities that we serve.
>> Yeah, yeah.
I mean, I totally agree with you on that.
And it is interesting to see the Trump brand of Republican essentially
talking about how much they love and support law enforcement, but
once it doesn't suit them and whatever their agenda is,
they'll turn on law enforcement immediately.
[LAUGH] They certainly did that.
Yeah.
With what happened on January 6.
Look, we we had shown the video that you had your body cam video on the show.
We covered it the day that you had released it, and
you can hear one of the writers say, shoot him with his own gun.
They wanted to kill you.
And luckily you got out of that alive.
But the fact that you have a huge portion of the Republican electorate.
But more importantly, pretty much every Republican politician try to
provide cover for what happened that day, really just blows my mind.
Because it's not just anti police, it's it's just anti America,
it's anti democracy.
It's everything that's supposed to make this country so great, right?
The fact that when you go and you cast your ballot, it's supposed to mean
something that they don't want to support or protect that at all.
All the things that they purport to care so much about,
how much they claim to love our troops, because they protect our freedoms.
Apparently they don't actually mean any of that stuff.
Because in order to have freedom, you need to have democracy.
So they'll turn on any of those institutions or
any of those groups of people they claim to love so
much as long as it stops suiting them politically.
>> I think that it shows the the vast majority of individuals
that occupy republican offices in this country
are more concerned with their own political careers,
their own political future than they are with the future of this country.
And you have, I think a really a vast majority of them are just completely
indifferent to the experiences of average everyday Americans.
And then you have those that are beholden to Donald Trump and
they see their path to glory through Donald Trump.
And so they'll make any excuse that they can or
that they have to including demonizing and vilifying me,
and many of the other officers that have stood up and
spoken out about our experience on January 6.
>> Final question for you, you worked for
the Metropolitan Police Department for a while, 2001 to 2021.
So you stepped down following the assault on the capitol.
You loved policing, what's next for you now?
Do you ever have any regrets for walking away from being a police officer?
>> No, I mean I missed the job, but I missed the job prior to January 6 and
I knew a long time ago that there was gonna be no
returning to law enforcement as I had come to love it.
I don't regret leaving the department.
As for my future, I have no idea.
I got this gig at CNN, I don't know how long that's gonna last.
As your producer reminded me before the segment,
I have a tendency to use four letter words flagrantly,
I don't know, it's not gonna work well.
And I just listen, I'm always gonna speak my mind and
and talk about things a certain way.
I don't know how that fits necessarily into this particular environment but
I don't enjoy it either.
I mean it was a means to an ends.
I mean I look forward to accountability for
January 6, so that I can return to obscurity.
>> Obscurity is pretty sweet, I will say that.
So I totally understand you there.
Well, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with us today.
And more importantly, thank you for
doing what you're doing now because I know that it takes a lot of courage.
I know personally what it's like to be targeted by Trump supporters, and
everyone please help support Michael Shannon's work.
You can check out his book, hold the line,
the insurrection and one cops battle for America's soul.
Michael, thank you so much again for joining us.
>> Yes ma'am, thank you guys for having me.