Hi Rebecca Zung here
And this is part one of a two-part episode on how to successfully litigate with a narcissist
This is part of my entire collaboration with dr. Romani the foremost expert on
narcissism from the psychological perspective
So we've married the psychological the legal we come together to bring you a power team so that you have the best possible information
And the best possible content to help you get through this situation with that narcissist in your life
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hit the notification bell so that you can be
Notified when I upload new videos
every single week and you'll want to make sure that you watch this all the way to the end because then when I upload part
2 of this very special episode
You will be all caught up on where we are. Okay, so let's dive in
Hi Rebecca zong here with you again
and I am the top 1% divorce attorney and the best-selling author of the books negotiate like you matter and
breaking free step-by-step divorce guide and today
we are going to be talking about how to
Litigate with a narcissist something I know very well
but I don't usually have
one of the top experts in
and from the psychologists perspective with me and
So, dr. Romani is here with me today and
We are going to talk about the kinds of things that they do in litigation and what to do about it
So in this second episode in the series, we're gonna be talking about this idea of litigating with a narcissist
So I think you know again I'm gonna bring the psychology perspective but in your genius isn't illegal
Which I know certainly my subscribers and viewers often. Don't get that perspective
So from where you're at Kay tell us explain explain to us what we mean when we say to litigate with somebody
Well, that means that there's a lawsuit going. Mhm. And once the lawsuit is filed and it could be you know
very often it's in divorce and that's obvious the perspective that I have but you know, I've also helped people who
Are litigating with a business partner, you know
Somebody who you've had a business with and now you're breaking up and maybe a lawsuit has been filed with that
so litigation means that some the court is involved in some way and
There is you know discovery
Requests going back and forth from documents there may be depositions involved, you know, things like that
But it just means that there is some kind of a lawsuit involved
Okay
So what any of us know about a narcissist is that first of all litigation is in most cases?
Going to be an unpleasant process regardless of the reason certainly most of all divorce is that something's not going right?
So the legal system had to get involved
Anytime's thing anytime things don't go right is not where then you're gonna get the narcissist at their best. They're really they're combative fighters
I always say narcissists are Street fighters because they're fighting for their lives the way they think at anytime somebody's kind of
- anytime someone's honing in on that their sense of insecurity they defend it because it's so fragile
okay, so what I've found so
Genius about some of the things you would race in a conversation we're having is what are the things you need to look out for?
When you are litigating with a narcissist and you had this out a long list of thoughts that we can build upon, you know
I hadn't thought of this some of it I talked about with clients
But I hadn't use your terminology because I'm not an attorney and so I was sort of framing it in these different kinds of ways
But we can see how this personality style is going to make litigation whether in divorce or anything else such a nightmarish
Process because they don't fight fair. They're naturally manipulative. They are so deeply entitled
They're great. They're so grandiose and entitled that they literally believe these rules. Don't apply to them
Like what is this court that is expecting me to be an accountable
like they really can't believe that there's a sense that
Someone's gonna hold them accountable and for people I've worked with who are long-term survivors of narcissistic abuse
They'll often say this person was never held accountable that's half the problem and sometimes for narcissists starts when they're kids
They weren't accountable as kids as adolescents as adults and work at home anywhere
So it's almost like these little monsters they get created that turn into big monsters. Yeah, so
Can you lay out cuz I'm curious what these things are that narcissists do in litigation that make it so difficult
Well, so the first one is that they're gonna try to win at all costs and we talked about this a little bit not in
Another video, but you know if you're not for a narcissist, then you are against them in their world
You know you you are one or the other you
Can't be both it can't be that we're just nicely going our own directions and it's you know
We can come up with some kind of middle-of-the-road agreement. You're not dealing with a rational person
and so, you know
you have to remember that this
person is probably going to be out to get you and and and it's really kind of hard to say that because
You know, this person will want to hurt you. They will want to get you in some way and
Winning to them is not what winning might be to you
It may not be the rational thing
Even if you just if they give you three choices of something to have to choose from as far as settling the case
You say okay. I'll pick number two. Well now it's changed
Yeah, you know I tell people that all the time, you know that you know
A lot of times people will say well maybe we can just settle this between attorneys, you know
I'll send over
a letter with my idea for a settlement and then the attorney will review it and then they'll
Talk it over with the client and then they sent over their idea for a settlement
But you're you're like trying to catch a wave and pin it down
Because as soon as you send that over first of all, they probably won't respond at all
Just even getting them to respond because now you're trying to control the process. Yes. Yes
Yes, so they probably won't even respond
But if they do respond it's gonna be something so ridiculous that you're not going to agree to it
even if they agree to it in a conversation in your house or something and you think that you're just
memorializing what you've agreed -
Or you think you've agreed to a particular piece of the case like well
We agreed that this was going to be how we settle our assets and then you sent over that exact agreement
Well now they've changed their mind, but they blame you they're gonna blame you for changing their mind
Well, it's because you changed on this it's because you did this, you know, they're constantly projecting
So whatever their bad behavior was and by the way
when you're dealing with narcissus who are the cause of the breakdown of the marriage like
They cheated or whatever the projection is
Ten times worse than anybody yeah. Yeah, of course. Well projections a defense that's designed to protect the psyche
So projections always going to get magnified when the person actually feels culpable if they're to blame for something for real
I mean as it is projections gonna happen on a day-to-day basis because they don't like themselves
but a lot of what you're describing
You go ahead and agree and they send it back and basically say no it's gaslighting. I didn't agree to that
But you're dead, you know, and that's your whole life
I mean
I think in many ways what I want to tell people especially when you're going through a divorce process in that that form of
Litigation this is actually going to be a replay of your entire relationship on steroids
That's it. That's all it is
so it's everything that was done there and I think
again
the biggest struggle on my side of things is working with people and they say I can't believe you did this and to which we
Both say why not? This is exactly what we expected them to do
Don't be surprised when they manipulate everything that you say or do I just had a client last week
We have an agreement where the parties will do all of their
communicating through an app
Isn't it it's a co-parenting? Yes that they're supposed to use
Well, this guy sends my client. I'm representing the wife
they text through the app that says this is to confirm our
Conversation that we just had when I picked up the child at your house
That you agree that I get the child on your time sharing time next Saturday. Thanks for agreeing to that
That conversation never happened
scuffling
Happen my client is freaking out like
What do I say to that I say?
You respond as we agreed all conversations take place right here in this app
And you never asked me that and that conversation never took place
Sorry
You know and then what the the narcissist then does is part of the larger gaslighting landscape
So I'll say really are you so petty that this is what it's dig
it's it's come down to this that we have to use the little app and they'll have contempt for the app and then
then what happens is the person who is the
narcissist abuse victim will doesn't want to be viewed as petty I mean we listen somebody who's being abused by a
narcissist also has their sense of identity and you know when you do have to make sure every I is dotted and every T is
Crossed and your day to day life and it's your kids, you know
that's where and that's where what I always say that the work takes a
What why narcissistic relationships happen and have these horrible endings? Is this sort of gradual creep?
It's that it's all right fine. All right. Yes, okay
You told me yeah, she wants to do it and then you agree to that one time out of the app
and now you're off to the races so that kind of
gradual limit testing and I say this I actually say this in my book, um in my most recent book,
You know relationship with a narcissist is death by a thousand cuts
because it's just
Every little thing that happens over time
That you just relent and you agreeing like oh my gosh when I can't happen because please this is happening
But it's things like no you hold your guns
We said the app and if that makes you feel like a my being too rigid no
It's the only way you're gonna survive this. That's a very good point. So boundaries is one of the things that I actually
Is my antidote to a lot of these things and that is you know, and sticking to your word
I mean and a lot of times by the way in litigation, you know, especially if it's a
post judgment litigation
so you've already now been to Morriston you're asking now for more child support or you're
Asking to modify or you're asking to enforce the agreement in some way to really go to great lengths to get you to drop that
Litigation and because they don't think it's necessary or whatever and so even if they are
$30,000 their child support or you know, even if they're wrong
They're gonna try to get you to drop that litigation
What I'm gonna say to you is if you drop the litigation now you have defined
Yes that you know, that's how far they need to go. So next time they're gonna be farther that much worse
To get you to give in so you're defining it's really like behavior modification
Forces and but the challenge is that the behavior unlike a dog or a cat or a child
Where you can make an impact or behavior modification, it doesn't work with narcissists. So you're not
it's not so much behavior modification as much as putting down a
hard-and-fast
Boundary, it's a bit like letting a kid cry it out to sleep
Like it's the most painful thing you go through because it feels uncomfortable for you and after a lifetime
Years and years decades and decades whatever it was of
giving in to the narcissist it can feel very
Artificial to all sudden change the rules and stand your ground because throughout the course of the relationship
Most people kept giving in and capitulating versus this will be stunned
Oh, I think they will be put off their game when you start standing up. Oh, absolutely
Here's the real secret. That's not so secret. And that is the narcissist is actually the most afraid person is there
And so if you stand up to I smell like that bully
Yeah, you know, I don't know if any of you saw the Christmas story
But you know that bully like when the kid with the glasses actually beats up the bully the bully ends up running away
So if you you know gather enough leverage if you put you know
put together a case with with the right strategy and and you know, and it's it's very
Methodical you know, you have to have patience and you have to have perseverance and in this in this process
But if you are able to have those two things you will be able to get what you want
It's just not gonna be in their face get what you want. I agree
Yeah
because when you're litigating with a narcissist wait when you're negotiating with anybody you have to have
Beat both sides want to feel value? That's why my book is called negotiate like you matter or matters an acronym for
The the process but all people want to feel seen her to know they matter but narcissists
It's like fifty thousand times more than anybody else
And so you have to be giving value to them as you're asking for something
So sometimes when you're litigating with the narcissist you have to you know, let's say you want
him
To take you're just gonna use a him, but it could be a her
to take Johnny for a field trip or something and you know, you said well, you're so good at
Whatever it is, you're really good at golf and it's a golf field trip
And you know and Johnny would love to have you there and whatever so you're getting what you want
But you're having to and I know what most of you are thinking like I can't stand the guy
it's like I
Think he's a jackass. Whatever
But you have to do a certain amount of massaging of their ego if you want to get what you want
well
I call it a
narcissistic fluffing and you've got to become a fluffer if you're gonna make this work folks like you really do and it is I always
Just tell people if I go I was talking with someone recently and she really put it nicely
She's like you got to take a Silkwood shower afterwards
You know
If you remember that movie
The woman who worked in like a nuclear plant and she had that you have to take these big chemical showers afterwards
I often tell my clients after you have to do an episode of narcissistic fluffing whether in your relationship in a divorce at work
I say please have a ritual you go home to it might literally be taking a shower or a bath where you're like intention like
I am getting this kick off of me that I had to play that game
But it is survivalist and for a lot of people they say this doesn't feel authentic. It doesn't feel good
No, these relationships. Don't feel good
But in some ways it might you have to have a true north and that true north could be
Something your key that your kids need or want?
It could be time again ultimately and you know how I feel about this even with the most difficult
narcissistic co-parent
Co-parent if you are never to throw that other parent under the bus, I mean you don't do it. You just don't do it
it's too confusing for your kids when your kids are adults and
Come to you and want to call that parent out as a narcissist
That's a whole different conversation. But that's a form of parental alienation, which is a form of child abuse. And dr
Aimee Beger who I've interviewed on my show, so my listeners will recognize her foremost authority on
parental alienation and the
World and she actually says it's harder for children to get over the effects of parental alienation that it is for them to get over
Sexual abuse. Well it is I mean, those are your words not mine
I'm not the psychologist, but it is a hundred percent child abuse, don't you?
Yes, even even if it's being done, you know, we're gonna be talking about that
Yes, but you talk about other things, too
Like you talk about manipulation and how that impacts the process of litigating their natural manipulators
It's remember when you don't have normal access to
Empathy or you choose not to use it when you are entitled
But you're not skilled enough and not secure enough to make a direct ask you get your needs met through manipulation
Okay, that's why they manipulate they do not have the skill set to say this is what I want
This is what I need. You need to value yourself to say this is what I need or want. They don't so they
Assume that they won't be able to get what they want. Yes, which is kind of sad when you really think about it
Yeah, but it's not so sad when they start manipulating it. That just doesn't feel good
So how do you litigate in the face of being manipulated well?
And this is gonna sound bad maybe but in some ways you kind of have to manipulate them and it be later. I agree
And and it's sort of like what I just the example
I just gave where I said, you know, oh, you're so good at or whatever or
You know if they give you choices, you know
maybe clarifying so because a lot of times the choice that they're giving you is so unfair and so stupid and so
You just you say back to them like, okay
So if I'm hearing you correctly what you're asking me to agree to is blah blah blah
I'm just like holding up that mirror to them. Yes
Yes, they know that it sounds ridiculous. And so they start backtracking from that
You know, but you have to be very careful because you don't say it was sarcasm. No say it with
With any emotion, you know
if I were get to give one biggest piece of advice and it's the hardest piece to take is
To keep your emotion out of it because you can't take anything personally that they do
Because they it's not about you. It's about them. Yeah
But you know, they'll make it all about you
But you know, it's really hard not to take it only if they're saying, you know, you're a deadbeat dad or you're a horrible mother
You know it because you're gonna want to defend yourself. You're gonna want to go you think I'm a horrible mother
I've been the one, you know, I'm sitting here with them now. I just took her to the dentist appointment
I just signed her up for soccer. All right, you know don't don't don't don't engage
I always say don't engage and that that's a part. I say don't engage don't defend don't personalize don't explain
That's your sort of narcissistic survival manual' that all of you already heard a million times for me
thanks for watching this very special part 1 of how to successfully litigate with a
narcissist watch in the next few days
Will I win I will be releasing part 2 of this episode and if you haven't already make sure you subscribe
So that you and hit the notification bell so that you'll be notified when I upload part 2
Until then. Thanks so much for stopping by if you haven't already grabbed my crush
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I will see you in the next video. Remember that today is a great day to start negotiating your best life