Hi, Matt here.
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>> To truly hone and
develop your communication,
you have to introspect, reflect,
seek feedback, and integrate all of
that information to improve.
I'm Matt Abrahams, and I teach
strategic communication at Stanford
Graduate School of Business.
Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart,
The Podcast.
[MUSIC]
Today I am super excited to
chat with Celine.
Celine is a facilitator of the GSPs
famous Interpersonal Dynamics
course, she's a CEO coach, and
a GSB graduate.
Welcome Celine, I so
look forward to our conversation.
>> I'm looking forward to this as
well, Matt.
I'm excited.
>> Excellent, well,
let's go ahead and get started.
I'd like to start with
the Interpersonal Dynamics course
that you help facilitate.
It's also known as touchy-feely,
and you and
others help run that course.
Can you remind our listeners what
the course is about, how it works,
and share maybe two key takeaways
from it?
>> Of course, interpersonal
dynamics is the most popular
elective at the Stanford GSB.
It's really about teaching people
how to be effective interpersonal
communicators, and
how to do so both at work,
as well as in their personal lives.
How it works, well, one example I
can bring to you is when I was
a student and MBA at the GSB.
One exercise that we ran in
touchy-feely is notorious,
it's known as the influence line,
where other students have to rank
you according to how
influential you are to them.
And consistently, I wound up in the
bottom half of everyone's influence
line, and I was devastated.
Here I was, a new immigrant to the
United States, female, Asian, and
I couldn't understand why I was at
the bottom of the influence line.
So I felt sad,
I felt disappointed in myself,
I felt hard done by, resentful.
And normally what I would do,
would be to disengage, and say,
you know what?
You don't think I'm influential,
I'm stepping out.
But what's great about this course
is it encourages you to reengage.
And so, I dug into the feedback,
got insights from
other people as to why I was
coming across that way.
And as a result changed the way
I behave when I'm in American
contexts.
But what's great about that is that
I diversified the range of
behaviors that I bring to bear.
So when I'm in the States,
I come across with a little bit
more emotion, and more animation.
And when I'm in Asia, I can come
across with less amplitude, and
I have this range of behaviors
now I can pick and choose from, and
I have agency.
So that's what
Interpersonal Dynamics does.
>> It's a phenomenal course,
and one of the strengths I
think of the course is that it
really helps people,
as you shared in your story,
to really learn about themselves.
And to learn about
themselves in a very direct way.
Not mean, but
to learn about themselves.
And then, as you said,
to develop a sense of agency to
make those changes that are needed.
And thank you for sharing that,
in all of our interactions, you are
certainly influential in my book,
you would be at the top of my line.
So thank you for that.
>> Thank you, Matt.
>> I'd love for you to share
how all of us can be a little bit
more touchy-feely, if you will,
when we work in organizations,
or corporate cultures that
emphasize the logic and action.
What can we do to be
more empathetic and
connected to those environments?
>> One of the things I will say is,
I'll repeat advice that David
Bradford, one of the key developers
of the touchy-feely course, told me
when I was actually Chair of the
Stanford alumni consulting team.
I asked him, David,
how do you bring touchy-feely to
organizations?
And he said,
still fit in with a check in.
>> Mm-hm.
>> And this is how you do it.
You go around the room in any
meeting, and
everybody says one feeling word,
how you're feeling today?
And one sentence as to why.
>> Mm-hm >> The reason why you do
that is because it creates
the space for someone to say,
here's what's going on with me
outside work.
>> Now, what happens is you no
longer have the sales team
talking to the marketing team.
No, you have a parent talking
to another parent, or you
have a caregiver talking to another
caregiver, you have more hope,
more chances for
people to connect with each other.
When I do my work
as a CEO coach with startups,
a lot of the CEOs tell me, Celine,
that'll take too long.
But honestly, five minutes,
I guarantee you,
five minutes is all it takes.
And then on top of that,
many of them will tell me, Celine,
I can't say the word feelings in my
organization.
We're a bunch of coders.
>> Mm-hm.
>> That word is not okay.
[LAUGH].
And what I tell them is, okay,
don't say feelings.
Instead, use a prompt like,
what was one good thing that
happened to you today?
What was one bad thing
that happened to you today?
What's keeping you up at night?
And then over time you can slowly,
slowly increase the vulnerability
and the range of emotions that
you're allowing people to bring in.
>> I love the advice, and thank you
again for the specific examples
about how we can start with
something as simple as just begin
by checking in with each other.
And in fact, doing so,
can warm people up and
get the conversation going.
And it doesn't always have to be
about an emotion.
And I loved what you said about
how it changes our relationship.
So I'm no longer my functional role
talking to your functional role,
where two people communicating, and
that immediacy and connection I can
see brings a lot of value.
Are there other bits of advice that
you have, or experiences you have
as a facilitator of interpersonal
dynamics, or in your own private
practice that can really help
connect people together?
Are there things we can do or
say that can help with that?
>> I think there are two things I
would recommend.
One is to be very clear
about what you're feeling,
because feelings are data.
And in the rest of our logical
lives, we would never make
decisions on bad or
highly abstract data, but
we will do that with feelings.
We will just say, I'm feeling sad,
mad, or glad, but
that's not detailed enough.
So what I like to recommend is, for
people to actually take a page from
Cal Robins book, connect, and
the back of that appendix, you'll
actually see a feelings chart.
Carry that feelings trot around,
and check in at the beginning of
meetings, at the end of meetings.
And say, how am I feeling right now
at a granular level, as an example,
before our chat today,
I've listened to this podcast since
the very beginning, I love it.
And so, as a result before I came
in today, I was excited.
I was glad, I was anticipatory, but
I was also nervous.
And so, what did I do with that?
I decided, I would go for a walk,
get some of those nerves out.
I would practice my vocal
exercises, and
then I decided to reframe.
You and I will have
a wonderful conversation, and
I think it makes for
just a much more fun interaction
than if I am just nervous.
>> Absolutely, so, certainly no
need to be nervous here, and
I too was very much looking forward
to this.
So, again, I hear the advice,
much like you give to our students
is, you really have to reflect on
yourself where you're at, and
take that as information input in
data from which you can then act.
And I think you're exactly right
a flick in thinking about
my own life.
When I look at my emotional state,
I'll just label it,
I won't actually go much deeper.
And I think that's really important
because then you can de-take action
if I just say I'm nervous, but if I
think more about that nervousness
and how I can address it,
then I can do something about it.
So, I like how the reflection leads
to data that can lead to action.
>> Exactly.
>> Very helpful, very helpful.
I'd love to get your thoughts and
advice on how do you manage
challenges, and issues, and
disagreement at work when you're
confrontational rather than
collaborative.
>> I would say it's all
about empathy.
Conflict is magnetic,
it draws attention.
And whenever we encounter conflict,
our attention tends
to go to this narrow focus point,
that is the conflict alone.
I like to encourage my clients to
expand their perspective, and
think about the relationship as
a whole as a container.
And then go to Gottman's research
that we also reference in
interpersonal dynamics.
Gottman found out that there's a 5
to 1 magic ratio of positive
interactions to negative
interactions in
successful relationships.
So my advice is, fill your
emotional piggy bank by depositing
those five good interactions in
before you have the conflict.
Build that, and
then even in the conflict,
continue depositing those positive
interactions in as a way of making
sure that your conflicts go well.
Because you're demonstrating good
intent, you're demonstrating
that the relationship's
important to you.
And these positive interactions can
be really small, they could be
a smile, an eye meet, they could be
a pat on the shoulder, they could
be a nod of the head, it's easy.
But we forget, I forget.
>> Yes, I certainly am familiar
with Gottman's work in this notion
of storing up positive interaction.
And I see this in my interactions
with my kids, there's a lot that I
try to actively acknowledge,
the successes.
As a parent it can be
very easy to focus
on the things you'd like to change,
or advice you'd like to give.
So, I consciously try when positive
accolades or praise are appropriate
to give that knowing not only that
will help in the moment.
But it might help me in those times
where I have to give negative
feedback, or
have a conflictual situation.
>> That's huge Matt, I love that
you're doing this with your family,
and even at work we have slack
channels called celebration.
Where people are encouraged to drop
in and just celebrate somebody else
for something they did.
Or at the end of meetings,
we'll actually have breakout rooms
where we'll put two people in
together and celebrate each
other- >> That's really
fabulous how that can help people.
And I begin to
think back to when you talked about
ways to bring empathy and
feeling into organizations
with a check in at the beginning.
Some kind of gratitude or
celebration at the ending might be
a really nice way to round out
an interaction or meeting.
>> They're nice bookends.
>> That's right, that's perfect.
For those of our listeners who
are looking to enhance or
hone their empathy, feedback, and
communication skills,
what advice and guidance would you
give them based on your experience?
>> I would recommend asking.
So, the reason why I say that is,
all of us here sitting in
Silicon Valley business types,
we tend to have advice monsters.
We like to give advice.
And what I encourage people to do
instead is to ask,
do you need support, or
advice right now?
And you'd be surprised the number
of times people say,
I actually know what I need to do,
I don't need your advice.
I just want someone to commiserate
with [LAUGH] me.
So do that, ask first.
We assume people need advice, but
that's not necessarily
always the case.
And the support component gives
us a chance to connect with
the other person.
>> Yeah, totally get it.
My wife and I have a lot of
conversations around this issue.
I as a professor, as somebody
giving advice is something that I
do as a reflex, and listening, and
understanding if support
is needed is really important.
I actually think, and this is
a little bit true for myself, that
giving advice is a way to hide.
You hide behind the advice, so you
don't actually have to connect and
engage.
And I'm wondering if you find that
to be true and
have any advice on how to have that
confidence to be vulnerable to,
I'm here to support you, but
I don't quite know how to do that,
or what's needed in the moment.
It's much easier for
me to say, just go do this.
>> Yes, of course,
before I answer that question, I'll
actually agree with you on that,
and also say that advice giving is
distancing because it puts us in
a position of superiority.
>> True.
>> It assumes that we know the
answer and, hey, Matt, I can fix
you, just do this, it's distancing.
And so, my recommendation is
actually to tip-toe into it
by sometimes even just knowing that
phrase, do you want support or
advice right now,
just practicing that.
Because once you can say that, your
response depends on what the other
person says, and they will
guide you as to what they need.
So, just ask.
>> I think putting yourself in
a place where you can just be
receptive is hard, but very useful,
and have seen that play out very
successfully many times in my life.
So thank you for that.
So Celine, before we end, I'd like
to ask you the same three questions
I ask everyone who joins me.
Are you up for that?
>> Yes.
>> All right, excellent.
So question number 1.
If you were to capture
the best communication advice you
have ever received as a 4 to 7
word presentation slide title,
what would it be?
It would be, people will remember
how you made them feel.
And that's by Maya Angelou.
>> Absolutely,
tell me more about why that's so
important for you.
>> because it's not about the
words, it's about how people feel
inside, that's how you persuade,
that's how you connect that's who
we are, we're emotional beings.
>> I think that's exactly right.
And we need to think about how we
impact people on an emotional
level.
I think we do a disservice when we
think about our communication as
only information transfer.
It is clearly emotion transfer as
well, and we need to bring those
two into balance.
And that quote is
very helpful to remind us of that.
>> I love that phrase,
emotional transfer.
>> There you go.
[LAUGH] Question number 2, who is
a communicator that you admire,
and why?
>> I think Steve Jobs comes to
mind.
Now, he used passion, simplicity,
storytelling to be memorable, and
so much emotion.
>> Absolutely, and
the thing I like about Steve Jobs
in terms of his communication is he
worked really hard on it.
He was very good at it, had lots of
natural talent, but he worked hard
tirelessly to improve and hone in,
and he also made sure to focus
the message in a very concise,
clear, audience centric way.
So, I agree,
a lots of good things to learn.
>> There's so
much hard work underpinning what
looked effortless.
>> Isn't that amazing how, and
I think that's a great lesson for
all of us to remember is that,
practice and preparation can make
things easier and look easier.
Question number 3,
what are the first three
ingredients that go into
a successful communication recipe?
>> I think listening to understand,
finding commonality,
and connecting through feelings.
>> So connecting through feelings,
I see absolutely from what we've
talked about.
Talk to me about listening to
understand.
>> I think that's bound up with
empathy, right, you can't really
communicate if you don't understand
what it is your audience is looking
for, your counterpart is looking
for, what they care about.
We focus too much on ourselves.
Yeah, and I feel like people, and
myself included, when I listen,
I'm listening for the hooks that
give me what I want to say next, or
help me get to the next place.
And not necessarily reflecting on
what this means for the other
person, and potentially for this
relationship, interaction, etc.
So I like that idea of listening to
understand.
>> Yeah, it ties back to what
you said about practice.
Conceptually, it's an easy concept,
but it's really hard to do,
because you have to let go so
much of your own agenda.
Mm-hm, yeah,
you have to quiet your mind and
really be present, and for
a lot of us, that's hard.
Celine, thank you so much.
This was a true pleasure
to chat with you, this notion
of really respecting our feelings,
and embracing them.
And looking at ways to really
understand ourselves, so that we
can bring our more whole self and
emotional self to our interactions,
our communication is absolutely
important.
So, thank you for the lessons,
thank you for your time,
and thank you for sharing important
information with all of us.
>> Thank you, Matt, and
pleasure was all mine.
[MUSIC]
>> Thanks for joining us for
another episode of Think Fast, Talk
Smart, The pPodcast from Stanford
Graduate School of Business.
This episode was produced
by Jenny Luna, Ryan Campos, and
me, Matt Abrahams.
Our music was provided by
Floyd Wonder, for more information
and episodes, find us on YouTube or
wherever you get your podcasts.
Thank you, and
please make sure to subscribe and
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[MUSIC]