-Welcome back to "Late Night."
We're here with MSNBC's Chris Hayes.
Look, a lot of attention was paid to it today,
but do you think, due to all the noise around this election
and the long tail of results, that we have --
it's fully sunk in
the historic accomplishment of Kamala Harris as Vice President?
-I was glad that it was hammered home today.
I do think it hasn't quite sunk in.
I mean, at some level I think there is something
kind of good about that, insofar as because that primary cast --
that that field was so diverse,
there was a certain kind of normalizing effect of that.
-Right. -Like, you know, people --
gay and straight, black and white,
children, immigrant or not, you know, women and men.
Like, that is how it should be.
And I do think that following that for a year and a half
sort of created sort of expectations, but of course,
it's an enormously consequential moment in American history,
and obviously, part of the subtext of a lot of
the battles that we're having over what the sort of
future defining feature of the country is.
-When you were here right after the election in 2016,
you talked about politics always
has sort of an opposite reaction
and this belief that if Donald Trump was the opposite
of Barack Obama, there would be an opposite
to what Donald Trump brought.
In the end, is Joe Biden -- is the Biden administration
the opposite you thought it would be?
-That's really interesting. I think in some ways he is,
insofar as, you know, all these jokes about
sort of boring or traditional. -Yes.
-That here is this person who was wildly untraditional
and also obsessive about attention in this way that,
you know, broke down all these kind of expectations and norms.
Joe Biden is the opposite of that.
I think that it's deeper than personality though, right?
It's about the way the coalitions react,
and I think that like, you know,
when I was on the show four years ago
right after the election and I talked about this sort of
opposite reaction, it's like the day after Trump's inauguration,
you had the Million Women March, the Women's March,
and you had millions of people
in the streets around the country,
and that didn't really stop for four years, right?
Like, that activated this opposite reaction,
and today is kind of the fruition of all of that work,
all of that reaction of people saying like, "No, that's not --
that's not what I believe my country
should be and look like."
And that doesn't stop now.
Like, that kind of thermostatic reaction of
American popular opinion and the way in which opposition form--
like, the thing we got to figure out,
which I thought Biden spoke about well today, is, like,
how to make the parry and thrust of politics happen in a box
that's more democratic and more normal
and less threatening about the end of democracy,
which is what we've just kind of, like, narrowly avoided.
-Right, which is -- you know, again, only two weeks ago.
And again, President Biden addressed it today.
Again, tone is not going to be what solves it,
although I think tone here is helpful, because you want to
bring down the temperature a little bit.
-It matters a lot. I agree.
-How do you --
You know, how does a Biden administration move forward
and try to, you know --
you know, are these people that can be brought to the table?
-You know, I don't -- That is the great unsolved question
of contemporary American politics.
I mean, one of the lessons Barack Obama learned is that
you cannot produce unity or cooperation unilaterally.
Like, you can do all the things
and you can extend your hand, but if Mitch McConnell is like,
"Sorry, dude," you can't make him do anything.
-Right. -So that lesson endures.
One thing that I think is different here,
and I think this is so crucial -- the impeachment.
And here's why.
In 2009, you know, there was the "look forward, not back."
There was a desire to deal with the crisis at hand.
There was a sense that spending political capital
on accountability for the previous administration
would be wasted when it could be put to use
on, you know, getting the votes now.
The impeachment has closed the door
on letting everyone just say,
"Well, whew, that was weird, huh?"
Like, no, we have to go back and litigate that thing.
The thing that happened two weeks ago
when the mob incited by the president, like,
apparently beat a cop to death,
we're not just -- that's not in the past.
That has to be dealt with in a formal constitutional procedure,
in which before the nation, we will litigate what happened
and the president's culpability,
and I think that is so important because it demands that we don't
just turn the page on it, because we can't turn
the page on it, because there is going to be a trial.
And thank God there is going to be.
-Now, of course, we did have -- we're in this rare situation
where we can see how an impeachment affected
Donald Trump and his supporters, right?
The first one arguably had no effect.
-Yeah. -I bet if you did exit polling
on whether or not, you know, people in November
were choosing based on -- -Oh, I think it had --
-This one does feel different.
I mean, you know, it might be just wishful thinking on my part
that people would perceive this differently.
-Yeah, I think -- Well, he's less powerful.
He's not the sitting President of the United States.
He's not facing re-election immediately, and, you know,
I think there's a real choice to be made for the Republican Party
and the leadership, particularly McConnell,
who I think basically holds his fate in his hands.
McConnell wants the 17 votes.
-You think he can get them? -Yes. Absolutely.
If he wants them, he can get them.
I just think that it does come down to McConnell,
and I do think there are probably 17 votes,
if McConnell wants it to be the case,
and what that would mean, I think, is afterwards,
were he to be removed, there would be a majority vote
about barring him from future office,
which I think is a no-brainer.
Obviously this person can't be trusted
with the public trust after what he's done.
That's not a close call.
And, you know, if you're the Republican Party, it's like,
you have a very rare opportunity
that is almost never afforded anyone,
to, in an official and binding way,
repudiate this poisonous presence in your midst.
You know, you don't really ever get to do that.
You can shun people, you can say,
"I won't take his endorsement," yadda, yadda.
This is like a binding constitutional procedure to say,
"The man has forfeited the public trust."
-The interesting calculus of, and I think we're dealing with
a lot of people who are pretty calculating,
is, you know, if you are a Hawley or a Cruz,
I would think a specter that would hang over
any future ambitions you have for the office of the presidency
would be that Donald Trump would run again.
-Yeah. -So, even though I think
they are playing to a base that also supports him
and would be furious if they voted to impeach him,
like, I mean, what are their odds in 2024
as a actual presidential candidate if Donald Trump
decides to run for office again? -I agree completely,
and I think that's partly the calculation here.
The other part of it I think, too, is if you're Hawley or Cruz
or any of those people,
if the party goes in the Trumpian direction,
which it may, you're not going to be the nominees.
-Right.
-Like, if that's the way they go,
they're not gonna be like, "Oh, the Princeton-Harvard clerk
who's got a beard and is, like, from Texas."
"Oh, the banker's son who went to private school
and went to Yale and wrote the book on Teddy Roosevelt?
Like, who now is Mr. Populous?"
No, I don't think it's happening.
I mean, it's gonna be like Don Jr.
[ Laughs ] Like, who are we kidding?
-Or it's somebody who we haven't conceived of yet.
-Exactly. -Like, if Trump continues to,
you know, exponentially play out, it will get Trumpier
in a way than we cannot really conceive of.
-Yes, we don't know the person who has a YouTube channel
right now that's gonna be the next Republican nominee.
-Right, who's, like, named after a dessert.
It's like, no, it's gonna be Creme Brulee.
He's like this alt-right guy. [ Laughter ]
Hey, you have a fan,
somebody that I'm a fan of -- Leslie Jones.
-Yes. -I think one of the great
developments of this past year is that she --
"Game of Thrones" ended and she started watching you on MSNBC.
Of all the things we could've predicted.
But I do -- This is one of my new favorite things
when I have a guest on is showing them a clip of --
this is Leslie Jones watching Chris.
-He got this condescending, "get your [bleep] together" look.
Look at this look he got on his face.
"I am sick of saying this to you, mother[bleep].
And y'all know that this is wrong what's happening.
Why ain't you doing nothing?
You know what? [Bleep] it.
I'm going to Chipotle."
[ Laughter ]
-I forget every time we show a Leslie clip,
our energy bill goes up from all the beeping.
-Yes. [ Laughter ]
-Hey, I know you're gonna be on air tonight
for a couple of long chunks tonight.
-For a couple long chunks, yeah.
-We're very lucky to have you on the air.
-Oh, it's so great to be here.