Why am I in another barber shop?
Because barber shops are by far the best place to have a conversation about masculinity, are they not?
You heard that conversation with Neil and he was fantastic,
but Mark from SliderCuts is completely different.
I think it's fine to do two barber shops and it's my series, so ... I'm going to do it.
Oh my days, I've never seen anyone cut their own hair before.
I've been cutting my hair since 14 years old.
I was my first client.
So Mark is a fascinating character, I knew about him before from his presence on social media.
Morning Insta, yes I am back in the barber shop, it's 9:23am.
People like Stormzy, Anthony Joshua, KSI, lots of guys that are very well known get their hair cut there.
It's like a fixture, I guess, in black culture, in the black community,
but it's also very much a functioning barber shop in Hackney.
Mark has written a book about business and, as a successful businessman, a lot of people
looked at him for advice and that's what he outlines in his book Shaping Up Culture.
Welcome to another episode of SliderCuts Shaping Up Culture.
The struggle is real. I thought a project with no money and if I didn't have my good social credit,
then this business would not be here today.
He does YouTube tutorials, he does events, giving advice to people. He's very kind of present in the community
around the barber shop.
I just think it's a really, really good place to go and further the conversation about men
and the issues facing them today.
Morning guys.
It's got to adjust this, but they had a little bit rinse right now.
Thank you.
That's for you. Thank you.
Do you feel like an uncle to some of the people that are coming to your shop?
Definitely, 100%. Especially that I've been cutting so many people for like the last 16 years, 17 years,
20 years, every major occasion in a boy's life, they get a haircut.
When you graduate from college, you get a haircut,
you have a baby, you're going to take pictures for the baby, you get a haircut,
you're getting married, you get a haircut ... a job interview, everything, everything, everything, yeah.
A job interview, you get a haircut. So you get to see them for all of those things.
So you do feel like an uncle, I am an uncle, unofficial. Nigerian uncle, everyone's uncle.
Although I've been keen not to look at masculinity just through the lens of identity,
quite a few viewers have asked us to look at black masculinity specifically.
Seeing that this series is about platforming and a range of voices we don't usually hear from,
I thought it would be a good idea to speak to some of Mark's clients.
Masculinity to me is about being an alpha male. An alpha?
Being able to provide, being able to, you know what I mean, set pace to your family, your friends,
be responsible for what you do, what you put out there.
I think society is hard right now, everybody just talks so much right now about this toxic masculinity.
So I don't think anybody fully even knows what masculinity is anymore or anybody, I think most people
in front of a camera anyway are scared to talk about.
You're right, as soon as you say masculinity to someone, they get so nervous.
I have so many guys that are really shook and I'm like, it's not a trick question.
People have talked about it, people just start talking about it when it becomes official
and it's like in front of a camera. Yeah, no, no, it's true.
But people like, if you come in here, people are talking about it.
I thought it was really interesting that the point was brought up about toxic masculinity.
I just goes to show, you know, there's so much kind of fear and apprehension around talking about masculinity.
People will think, oh, she works for the Guardian, she's a woman, whatever reasons, they get scared that
if they're honest, they're going to get caught in a trap.
Yeah, of course there are some people that are, you know, so far leftfield is wherever,
but there are lots of people that just have traditional views on masculinity
and I just find that a really interesting conversation to have.
Do you feel like people have to put up a front, be a different person in front of these people,
in front of those people?
I think that's just society as a whole, there's a slogan in my office when you come in to do work,
it says 'bring your whole self to work'.
You could be who you want to be without fear of reprisal, but could you really go and do that in the workplace?
I don't think traditional masculinity is bad
because it comes from somewhere, you know, innately I do have this feeling where it's like,
as a man, you should be protecting women.
And that comes from that kind of alpha male kind of like, I guess, quote, unquote,
toxic masculinity thing.
It's that duty, if you are stronger, to protect the weak, you know, and nobody wants to be deemed as weak,
but we're all weak in something. Women are generally physically weaker, generally.
So in a situation where, if there's an altercation, you expect the man to step in and stop it.
You know, women can help men process their emotions more because we are weaker in that.
In the 17 years of me working in a barber shop, there probably isn't more than five times
I've heard a man say that his girl cheated on him.
Men don't want to feel that vulnerable, but women I know talk about it,
they talk to their friends about it,
they talk on online platforms, whatever, they talk about it, they're ok to talk about it.
So if that happened to me, the reason why I couldn't talk about it is because I know it happens to people,
people are just scared to talk about it.
I talk about my feelings, I talk about if I've cried, I've cried, I talk about, you know, being hurt,
I talk about vulnerable situations where, you know, it's nothing proud, there's nothing like,
nothing about the story that makes me look good.
Jake, anything embarrassing happen at the weekend that you want to talk to us about?
You're the king of putting things out there.
When you first hear that, like, someone is going to come and ask you about masculinity,
what are the first things that you kind of think of, what pops into your head?
Feelings. Feelings? Really? OK, why?
Everyone talks about how they feel, so I sing, so I have to, that's my outlet.
I guess you can't talk about all your feelings in pop music, right?
Not everything, I never talk about, like, family stuff in music, because
that's not going to work on a beat for me.
So then how do you deal with something like that ... feelings that are not?
I've started doing therapy. Is it?
It's a bit personal but I started talking to my dad a bit more about how I felt about him.
Now we're better because I was more confident enough now because of the therapy to talk to him
about how I felt, whilst before I would just keep it inside and just be mad at him.
So after discussing therapy, the conversation from earlier developed a bit further and we talked about
relationships with fathers and I found it really interesting
just kind of looking at this through the experience of like a second generation immigrant.
Fathers' and sons' relationships are so important when you're talking about masculinity
because that's where you learn, essentially, how to be a man,
whether or not they're present in your life.
One thing I've always asked my mum because she's more open to talk about feelings and stuff
and I started asking, like, why, you know, why is he like this and why can't I get through to him?
She's like, his dad didn't show him any, any love or anything, so he's the same.
And I am like, is that an excuse to not try, you know? Yes. No, it's not.
Do you think it's an excuse to not try? You're not going to try. No, it is an excuse.
20 years into your life, 30 years into your life, you move to another country right?
You still haven't learnt the language or the culture, you've learnt it because you were born here.
So when you are looking at him you are like, but I don't understand why he doesn't try,
it's not that he is not trying to try, he just doesn't understand, full stop.
He doesn't even know what he is supposed to be trying.
So then what advice then do you give to the younger generation?
I guess we have to be more understanding, like I don't know my dad, I had no contact with him,
I knew he's in Nigeria somewhere. I spoke to him years back, his first thing he said to me was,
what took you so long to contact me? That's mental.
But I know it's African mentality that your children should always come and seek you and look for you.
I'm just looking at your face.
Not, not to be happy about, you don't have to be happy about it, you don't have to agree with it.
I don't even, I don't actually agree with it, but ...
You understand it. But I understand it. That's a crazy first line.
That's the first thing he said to me. That's the first thing he said to me.
You have got a son though? Two children. Two children, both sons? Both sons, yeah.
I've got a six-month-old and a three-year-old.
And do you feel like nervous at all about, like, I don't know, there's so many things you've seen in the shop,
like so many people that you've come through, so many issues you've seen, do you feel like you are, I guess,
quite well-equipped to kind of guide them through life?
Raising my children ... There is times of worry when I look at society, but ultimately I've just taken on the
attitude that I can only do my best, so just focus on the things which I can do,
which is, you know, be involved in their lives, you know, teach them the right way, show them from example,
the way I'm living, you know, just living the things which you're preaching.
But it's scary because, you know, I hear about all these things, you know, especially raising a young black boy
in the area of, you know, we live in Hackney,
and you hear about young people being stabbed, people being killed and people murdering other people
and it's like, what happens if my child is one of those people?
There are areas which have more violence in it, more stabbings and stuff like that,
so if I'm in one of those areas,
and it was like that as my child is getting older,
I'd be like, yeah, I think we just need to move because I have to protect my family.
But as I said, I even feel bad saying it.
It is hard because you want to play a part in the community as well and be there
to make everything better but you also, you've got that, like you said, that whole thing of protecting
yourself but also protect your kids as well so you're torn between the two things.
So I don't think there's a right thing, no one could tell you what to do.
But I feel guilty about the fact that I can.
Where do you think you find strength?
For me, it has to be my faith. My faith is my foundation.
I don't always get it right.
Trust me, I don't always get it right, but that's my foundation, spending that time in reflection
and also understanding my own limitations allows me to tap into a strength that is bigger than me.
I started this conversation today with someone talking to me about what being a man is
and they said, like, being the alpha, being a provider.
You were talking about, I guess, a much more vulnerable type of masculinity, which is like ... the variation is like ...
I'm not a provider, like, I'm not. I don't look to me for provision, I look to him for provision.
Yeah, just admitting that I'm not strong, that I am not, like, lately, I am not, but I am, all at the same time.
It's a wonderful paradox.
What is it that for you is your motivating force that keeps you coming to work on time,
continuing to kind of offer stuff to other people and fight for yourself out there?
One, I think, is growing up in poverty so, you know, my mum didn't have any money when we were like
four maybe, when I was five, we were homeless, you know, so we lost our place where we were living in,
we were in a homeless shelter, then you know, got onto the council list, you know, started moving from house
to house, you know, was that poor family everywhere we went, you know, but growing up in poverty,
it hasn't put me in a place where now I am not in that poverty anymore, is that kind of like, you know,
I'm self-made and I made it out.
It's made me have more compassion for those who are in those situations
and there are so many people who need help.
So I feel like this episode has done something different to the other ones, it's much more conversational,
and I've enjoyed being able to spend the time talking to these guys.
We did do it in a black barber shop, but I don't really like to do things along the lines of identity
and put people into identity boxes because I think it's really reductive
but I think it's also important to acknowledge people's experiences
and I think that for a lot of young men who are in immigrant communities, second generation immigrants,
third generation immigrants, these questions are really hard to talk about.
I found this episode to be quite touching for me personally,
there were lots of things that I connected with, even though I come from a different perspective,
I am a woman, I'm not Nigerian, but there were so many things, as the daughter of an immigrant,
that I totally understood.
I hope that, whoever you are watching this video, that there have been things in here that you connect with
for whatever reason because that is what the series is really about.
If you have liked this episode, or any of the other episodes in the series,
make sure that you like, comment and subscribe to stay up to date with the rest of the series.
I spilled coffee on myself.