My name's Dammy. I'm 23.
I have two sisters and a brother and I'm from divorced parents,
but I'm in touch with both of them.
Living arrangements are always kind of complicated.
At the moment, I live with my mum, but not even two weeks ago,
I was living with my dad.
I love my mum, but she does things that I find really annoying.
Hi, Mum.
Where have you been?
Dammy, I needed your help with this.
My mum does not see me as a grown-up, so it's a bit
difficult trying to have a serious conversation.
So, how did you feel about the interview?
I think it went well,
but I felt like I started rambling towards the end.
Did they not ask you leading questions?
No, the "tell me about yourself" question was the hardest bit.
Like, what do they want to know?
What do I need to...? I don't know.
Sounds like it was a bit serious, doesn't it?
They're always serious.
Oh, don't they know you're my baby?
Don't they know you're my baby?
No, Mum. They don't know that.
You should tell them that you're my baby.
I'm pretty sure that won't make a difference.
You'll be surprised. Just tell them you're Arinola's baby.
Tell them that next time.
Shouldn't mess around with you.
Anyway, what do you think about this?
She calls me baby all the time.
All the time.
In an ideal world, I think it would be better if she
didn't talk for five minutes just so I could get it all out
rather than, like, trying to embrace me.
You know, I like something like this.
What do you think? This? Yeah, I agree.
You agree? We agree on something? Yeah.
So, I was trying to tell her about my mental health and she was like,
"Yeah, no, you're fine though. It's fine.
"I know you get a bit worried and anxious, but it's OK.
"Don't worry about it." I was like, "No, Mum,
"I want to explain how I feel in detail."
She was like, "No, no, it's OK. Let's move on.
"Let's not dwell on it."
And I'm just like, "But I'm trying to communicate with you."
I think she was trying to hug me more than listen
to what I was saying.
Her reaction definitely pushes me away.
I wish I could say more.
Er, excuse me, sir.
You didn't see how full I am.
Oh, Lord!
Huh? It didn't go around me.
Dammy, what's the matter? Nothing.
I have to be honest, I was feeling a bit anxious
about coming home. Why?
Cos I moved in with my dad and suddenly, I'm back with you.
Like, it's not a bad thing.
It's just I feel like I went back in time a little bit.
Made me feel a bit uncomfortable.
I feel like I've got to somewhere else in my life and I just went back
in time and I didn't want to go back in time. Oh!
I'm just thinking how I can help.
You can't, you can't.
There's nothing anyone can do.
So, has it been difficult adjusting to living back with me?
Yes, but no. It's hard to explain.
I don't really want to talk about it any more.
I think, I think...
I think I understand what you're trying to say,
but I'm asking you to look at a different perspective.
Can I invite you to a different way of thinking?
No. HER MUM LAUGHS
Just no.
Oh!
I don't need help, that's the point.
Oh, yes, yes.
Maybe tell me how you're doing every now and then.
No, no.
Just ignore you?
Ah!
That seems to be the script right now.
The script of you go your way and I go mine.
That's the way it feels.
DAMMY SNIFFS
This conversation is just stressful.
It's done, OK. All right.
OK.
I'll see you later. Let me just go up the other side of the market.
I think family therapy will help
in the way where we'll be able to communicate better.
I think that's the main thing.
So, family therapy isn't a quick fix.
Normally, people see a family therapist over a period of weeks
and months and sometimes even longer, so this is just
the beginning of that journey for Arinola and Dammy.
So I hope that, even in one session,
we're going to be able to start identifying
some of the issues that they'd like to resolve.
So, one of the themes that kind of emerged for me
when I was watching some of the interviews
of both of you this morning was about the talking
and about who takes up space, who does the talking.
You know, what the talking is about.
You're laughing already.
I'm laughing now because life is easy.
It doesn't have to be tough.
OK. Yeah. So...
It doesn't mean I'm not taking it seriously,
it's just my reaction.
Yeah, yeah.
Tell me what you would really like to work on...
OK.
..together.
I would like there not to be such a thing
around me saying I need space.
Like just... If I say the word then it's not offensive,
it's not personal. I literally just want to decompress for a while.
Yeah.
I feel like she takes it personally when it's not.
And how would that improve things between you?
I think I wouldn't be so worried about how she's feeling emotionally
at that moment because she wouldn't have a large emotional reaction.
It might just be a little bit taken aback rather than
actually hurt or upset.
What happens for you then when you hear Dammy say,
"I need some space, Mum."
Well, if I can't negotiate to stay a little bit more
then I just go back to my room.
I mean, even yesterday...
..what happened?
I think I said, "Can I have five minutes?"
She goes, "Yep." So I had five minutes.
I didn't know I was on a clock.
So I think I said something else,
she goes, "Mum, you've spent 45 minutes now.
"You only wanted five."
And I act like a child, like, "Oh, yeah,
"so I did 45. OK.
"All right. So I think my time is up." Mm-hm.
And then I just go. Mm-hm. So...
You said something important there also.
You said, "So then I act like a child."
Yes... Is that right?
What's happening for you inside then?
Do you feel like you're being rejected?
The thing is, I didn't realise that there was a time scale.
Mm-hm. So it comes as a shock. Yeah.
And then I'm also saying, "I haven't seen you most of today
"and I would like to spend time." But I also understand
that she has her own plan, you know?
So, all that, I'm processing all that in my head, but I'm thinking,
"We haven't actually really seen each other, but we live together."
Maybe parents or mums, maybe they always feel like that.
Maybe there's always a feeling like, "I'm always going to want
"more of you than you want of me."
You know, maybe that's part of the process of having children.
Mm. What do you think about that?
What do you think? Yeah. Yeah? Definitely.
You sound pretty clear.
Is that how it feels a lot of the time?
That, sort of, Mum wants you more than actually you need
because you're an adult?
Yeah. Yeah.
I wonder how your mum became an adult, alongside her own mum.
And one of the things that really struck me
as I was watching the video clips this morning
was that you're about the same sort of age
as you were when you came to this country.
Is that right?
I was about 22, 23...
Yeah, I think about that age, yeah. Mm-hm.
Does that feel significant? Cos it feels significant to me.
Yeah. Right? Maybe you hadn't thought about it. No.
It feels really significant to me.
Mm. I left a lot of pain behind as well.
Uh-huh.
I wanted to get away from voices shouting and...
Um, what's the word I'm looking for?
Constantly being told off.
Mm-hm. Told off or not being good enough. Wow.
I just wanted to keep...
Draw a line and get away.
OK. Yeah. That's why you left?
That's one of the reasons why I came here.
Who were those voices that you left behind?
Um... There was a lot of pain because my parents were separated
and he expressed his own pain in his own way
and one of it was to imagine that I didn't have a mum
any more, she's dead.
Tell me what you're hearing for the first time?
How are you hearing this story?
How she felt about not being good enough.
Yeah.
Um... Jumping between Mum and Dad because I'm kind of...
Does that sound familiar? ..doing that now. Yeah. Yeah.
But I'm not doing it in the same context.
My situation is not hostile on either side. Mm-hm.
It's just situations happen, so you've got to go from here to there.
Yeah, but it's interesting how patterns sometimes repeat.
Yeah. Or parts of them. It sounds...
..oddly familiar, kind of uncanny.
What does that mean for you as a mum?
I made a promise to myself that I would never - if I had kids - never
let them feel unloved or have a painful experience.
So I guess I was wondering whether that's part of the reason
why perhaps it's difficult to talk to your mum sometimes
about your anxiety or other things that have been difficult.
She is there ready with a hug before you've even got the words out.
What do you think?
Yeah, there might be some truth in that.
What do you think about that?
Do you think that maybe your real strength and your passion to try
and make things OK for your children means sometimes there is a danger
that you kind of override the things that are difficult
because it's just too horrible to think about.
I think there's a possibility that could happen,
but it would be nice to have that articulated
in a way that I would understand what the issue is. Mm-hm. Yeah.
How are you doing right now?
Um, I feel a little bit overwhelmed.
I'm trying not to cry,
especially when she was talking about some painful memories.
Do you mind if I ask you about some of those feelings?
Hearing from her parents that she's not good enough
and she just can't seem to please them, it's all so...
I just can't imagine it.
It's just...
It sounds really uncomfortable.
Yeah. It sounds like you've got a really...
A deeper level of understanding of your mum
when you hear her talking in that way.
I think I might want to talk to her more about complicated issues
because it's very possible that she's felt the same way,
even if I didn't know that. Yeah.
And she'll be able to give me the best advice possible
because she's done something far more extreme. Mm-hm.
Is this what you had in mind?
How did you think it was going to go?
I had no idea how it would be, so this is kind of...
It's going better than I expected, to be honest.
I thought we'd both be crying, maybe. Crying and hugging.
Not sure. OK. Is crying and hugging not good?
No. I don't want to do that.
You don't want to do that? No.
OK. Why?
I feel like it might not get us anywhere,
just waste time with the tears, so...
Mm-hm. What might happen if you start crying?
I might let go of things that I'd maybe bottled longer
before that I just didn't want to address.
OK.
Did you know that Dammy feels like that?
What she said about the crying getting in the way,
I've never heard that one before. Mm-hm.
But I do know that when I cry it's like she doesn't know what to do.
Is that right? Mm-hm.
Does that upset you?
Yeah. I can't help.
I can't manage the situation.
Mm-hm. Whether you're crying or doing something else,
I guess I wonder how people can be there for you
if it's difficult to show that you're vulnerable.
I hadn't thought about that.
I think it's a bit dangerous if you don't vocalise
or express things, or get it out of your system.
Mm-hm. You kind of need to be able to get some stuff out of you.
Maybe that's part of what happens with the anxiety,
where it builds up.
You're talking about being vulnerable now
because I've brought it up.
So, how does it feel talking about it now with your mum here,
sort of acknowledging some of these complicated feelings?
I feel exposed. Mm-hm.
Yeah.
What do you think your mum's making of it?
What do you wish she could take away from this bit of the conversation?
I'm not really sure.
Just turn your chairs a little bit
like you were doing before
because I think you need to be
having this conversation with each other.
So, why don't you ask Dammy how she'd like you to be?
How...?
Dammy,
I am so sorry and almost hurt for you, to hear what you said
about the vulnerable thing
and having to deal with things yourself
and it makes me feel that I'm not available enough,
or I'm not approaching you in the right way
so that you can be comfortable enough to talk.
So, what can I do differently
to help you to get out some of those feelings
or talk about them?
I feel like if I say something sad, you'll be really, really sad. OK.
And I don't want to make you sad, so I'd rather just deal with it.
OK.
SHE SIGHS Give me your hand.
I don't want you to feel that, um...
..you telling me things and if I'm sad it's your responsibility.
I want you to understand that I have a way of dealing
with my own things and it's not something
that should be your problem, that you should fix.
I would like to know when you need me to come
in to situations because I agree with you
that I would like you to solve things yourself.
You know I've always encouraged independence, but I also
would like you to give me an indication
of when you need my input.
Sounds like your mum's saying she's really strong
and she wants to be there for you in a different sort of way,
so that you can go to her, or not go to her.
But you don't need to worry about her.
Yeah?
I don't really know what to say.
It's just kind of comforting to hear.
Mm-hm. OK.
I'm happy for you to pile on more. You're my baby, you know?
You're my baby.
I adore you. I'm so proud of you.
And I guess part of that conversation is,
she can come to you, and she doesn't have to come to you
and that's also OK.
You're right. Spot on. Yes. I agree with that.
Yes.
This feels like a really important moment
to be thinking about the anxiety that you've experienced
in the past and maybe still do.
Is there something that you want to share with your mum?
Would you like to guide her, how she can help you?
Oh, yes, please. I guess if I just...
If I say the word "space", just don't take it personally.
No, no, no, no.
No, I won't take it personally.
You know I need my space sometimes.
What happens at home, I don't know, around meals..?
I know it's kind of new, isn't it, being back at home?
But can you think of a scenario where it doesn't work brilliantly?
We don't eat together.
I know my mum would like to, but we eat very separate things.
I have a very restrictive diet
and she'll either nibble something that I'm eating,
or just eat something completely different
or she'll want to try my food.
I don't like to share my food. OK. No, she doesn't. It's a no-no.
It's mine. OK.
What would it be like if you made extra
and Mum made a real effort to eat the food that you made?
That would be nice.
Cos eating together's a very special thing really, isn't it?
Oh, yes. Yeah.
Are you willing to give it a go?
Yes, I am. I am.
Yeah. Are you feeling all right?
I bet you're feeling exhausted, aren't you?
A little bit, but I also feel lighter as well.
Great.
Can we hug now?
OK.
Yes.
Baby, I love you so much.
Love you.
A long hug. Was it long?
Yeah, it was a long hug. OK, I'll try and be shorter next time.
She was timing!
So, has the week been very beneficial for you?
It's been interesting.
It's been invasive because I feel like I'm having to
think about things I would not think about.
Mm, same here.
Like out loud.
I have to say that, in any way that I have contributed,
you know, to the anxiety thing...
Air quotes.
Um... I'm just apologising because I know how hard
things have been, you know, the last few years.
I feel like I see things a bit differently now.
Like there are things my mum says and I kind of understand
more where she's coming from when she says it.
Also when I said I needed space the other day,
she didn't freak out, which was nice.
Then we had a very emotional conversation yesterday
where I kind of blew up a little bit,
but she was quite patient with me,
which I appreciated.
I feel like I got a lot of my frustrations out.
Because, to be honest, I just like peace,
I like things to be calm and I was holding something in
that I think needed to kind of come out.
So...
..now that that's done, everything's kind of calm.
Oh, I love this.
Can I taste?
DAMMY LAUGHS Yeah, all right.
All right. Mm-mm-mm.
Ooh, my baby can cook.
Mum... No, you've tasted...
You're putting your hand in it!
Mum, no, no, no.
Please, no.
Both of us are listening more.
We're doing the work to repair our relationship
and it's not that we individually need to do stuff,
we need to do it together.
Shall I follow you, madame? OK. Thank you, madame.
Thank you.
Though we're not able to have difficult conversations
just yet, there's a slight improvement and,
for me, that's just good to have some progress.
Very nice.