Unite as of this recording just worked a convention together and we were actually at the convention in the
bar afterwards talking about meta modernity
Which is a really interesting concept that you have that I think people need to listen to and I'll let you describe it
well, I originally I
Did a lecture on it. So anybody who saw me at Cadabra last year will this will be like, oh that's vaguely familiar and
And I originally thought this is just a kid show thing and it's really expanded. I realized oh no, this is everybody thing. So basically
If you live the pike guys here I know this, but I went to art school
Didn't even graduate and yet it defined so much of my personality. I
Really loved the way that visual art breaks down
phases and and
traditions and zeitgeist and the way they talk about how
Different eras in art are reflections of difference like ice-t's cuz if you think about it
If you take cubism and you put it somewhere else before cubism other thing
We're talking cubism as like an art an art visual art thing at not a talk. Amis a soui
Oh, that's cute. Yes
And you put it some, you know, put it 30 years earlier it's not avant-garde
It's not anything because art is a reflection of its time
It's a form of communication and entertainment is as well
And if you look you can kind of see this trajectory where things sort of concepts feelings eras start out in visual art
They often move to dance live theater and music then eventually
nowadays TV gets them and then
20 years later magic fix up on it. And this is something I sort of noticed by accident when I was
looking around at these kid shows because I realized that you know, like maker the maker magician and Scott Greene and
Christopher Barnes or some kid show magicians that are coming out and they got this whole new angle. It's this new vibe
Yeah, and then before that you've got, you know your david case you've got your daddy or liens
you've got your error of KidsMatter that came before that and those also have sort of
Similar vibe and I kept trying to I'd like to analyze things until they're boring
And so I tried to really break down. Like what is it about Chris Barnes that it feels so modern
Like I couldn't really figure it out. And so then I started researching like well, what is modern what is modernism?
Modernism as an era was the era. That was all about technology is great. And it's very hopeful and everything's hopeful and everything's
Cuddling and kisses and happy and romance and yay
And things are good and hopeful and everything in that era to us now feels very cheesy. Mm-hmm
It was perfect as era. But now it feels a little not quite right
Hmm, you know like Doug Henning or early Copperfield? Yeah. Oh, okay. And so I kind of made that connection
I was like then then what happened? Well, then we have post modernity which is a reaction to modernity
So modernity is a little too saccharine to do a little too sweet a little too cheesy. So then we've become jaded
Oh, we don't like that. We want to reject that. That's true. Yuck gross. We hate it. So what do we want?
We want cynical we want things that are self-aware. We want things that are the new version of that thing
We want we want almost newness for newness sake and it's a little skeptical. It's a little cynical
okay, so
David Blaine. Yep, Criss Angel
later Penn & Teller Penn & Teller one of the few artists
I've seen that have moved with every face because you know, they're geniuses and
they
Don't fit into the same mold that a lot of other magicians do
Because of the way they work together and the themes that they focus on yeah
But you see it's somewhat like you're there punk rock phase is very postmodern
Okay, you know and I think they were Postma they were the first postmodern magicians because it was years before David Blaine and Criss Angel
When they were already doing that cool. Yeah that cool angle
they you know, they knew magic this is this is not a lame magic show just that self-awareness just that that
Internal like we're aware that we're magicians. We're aware that there's a magic culture that didn't have itself
It's very postmodern and now they're very in this next phase because I tell are really good at keeping up with things
Uh, and so what's the next phase that becomes the question because if I mean think about it
Postmodern we got to be past postmodern because we don't see a lot of the Criss Angel David Blaine on TV anymore
We see this new thing. What is this new thing?
yeah, we're seeing more of like the Justin Willman x' and the DMC's where it's not like it's like Justin Willman x' like magic for
Humans is interesting in a sense that like he is
He's sort of aware that he's a magician and other people are aware that he's a magician
But they're not like but it's not that sort of street. Yes shaman that David Blaine has got going on
So it's it's almost like it's a mix of both eras
Yeah, which is exactly what meta modernity is sort of a self-aware self-aware. So so it's got the self-awareness and the
rejection of the overly saccharine that postmodern does but we miss some of that sweetness we miss some of that
Generosity and that authenticity that came with the modern era and so imagine for humans is a perfect example
It is post. It is meta modern. It's it's a response to the postmodern stuff
it's you know, the thing with what David Blaine and and
Criss Angel were doing was they were like
It was such a rejection and whereas women's show is is somewhere in between the two which is exactly the era. We're in
It's like that that there's a scene to me in
Wilma's show that is like it's the perfect
Idea of what you're getting at right now, which is the marshmallows with the kids
It's because it's very sweet
But it's also hyper self-aware that it's a television show and it's also very strong magic
And it's it's I mean that for sure also the whole magic for Susan's thing right where it's like it's a show that's aware
It's a show and it's aware of the tropes of shows and but it's still sweet
It's not like because a postmodern thing would be like tropes of shows are stupid where it's like troops of shows are silly
We're gonna do this but we're gonna we're gonna be aware of it. I mean, yeah meda meda modern and and think about it
I mean think about how you could immediately point to the people that are doing TV
The people are at the top the people that are most popular. Yeah. Why is that? Well because
If you are just doing low-level corporate gigs this stuff kind of doesn't
Really affect you it affects you once you want to catch fire or be part of the cultural zeitgeist
That's moving forward because right now culture people
want something and
On some level you have to find a way to be the thing they want and I'm not saying don't be authentic to your own
You know narrative or what you want to do
However, it's not it this isn't about what you want to do
This is how you do it a show that is meta modern is a show. That is self-aware
It's aware that it's a magic show. It's a show that knows about the tropes of magic
It's a show that is a little sweet, but also a little salty. It's a little of everything
hmm, Rick and Morty I think right now is the best example on TV a
Perfect meta modern television, which is why it's so successful
It's highly intellectual. It expects a lot of its viewers
but it's also
playful Leanback
entertainment if you want it to be but if you want to dig into it and look at it as this intellectual pursuit that is
There for you, too
It is very it's got poop jokes at fart jokes, but also there are moments where it's it's about something really significant
Yeah
There are these solid sweet authentic moments of vulnerability and then right
At the moment when it's about to get a little cheesy. They make a left turn and do a poop sound or something
That is perfect meta modern meta modernity. And once I sort of figured this out I
Rewrote my bottles act and I rewrote some of my material so that they would have these
These moments of authenticity these moments of generosity
I wanted to put these moments throughout my act and then you know really lean into them and make a left turn and
and it's really just changed the way that people respond to the act they just
the the thing that happened when I change that was people went from going this is great to
Theirs you've got it. There's something and you've got it
You've really got that it factor the it factor that people have been unable to quantify all this time
It's just about being present in your current culture
It's about you are it you are this thing that we are doing right now?
You are the it that's around us at all times. You are familiar and safe. It wasn't until you sort of
discuss this concept with me that I started to understand like which of my bits really hit hard and which are
Getting there
But they're not quite there and the ones that live and exist in this sort of meta modernity
Are the ones that are doing?
Extremely well, and the other ones that aren't are like just not quite there yet
And I think this is a really valuable concept for anybody who wants to create a really solid show
But also wants it to be like, you know
interesting to people and have sort of a staying power almost because the it will exist in a time and it's not
going way way way back, but you can even if you like our magician who says oh
I just do the classics you can take the classics and apply this concept to the presentations so that it works
Yeah, I think the person doing that the most Alex Boyce out of New York. Am I saying his name, right?
You know, I'm not familiar with out. I think I'm Alex if I'm saying your name, I'm so sorry. I worked without voice
Alex is doing a very classic Channing Pollock style dub act. Mm-hmm, but there were all these moments in it
Yeah, there are these like there are these moments where he's he's aware. He's in a magic show
He's like, I'm not gonna do that. You think I'm gonna do that
I'm not gonna do that and it's just a little tiny bit. But the whole time I was watching him
I'm like man, I if you had told me that's what you're working on
I wouldn't have been able to imagine it but now that I see it, of course, you know
He's doing the thing with the airplane and all that. It's just wonderful. I can't wait to see this out. Oh my god
He's really really good. He's he does shows with
Todd Robbins at the show. They've started in New York. The one that's partnered up with Sleep No More. Oh, okay
You're in New York. You got to see Todd Robbins show it I was really blown away
There were a few people that were like me and you don't have to see it like not you know
I talked to the wrong people who don't appreciate good art, and then I wind I was just
Flabbergasted it was so great
well
I'd say if you're any anywhere
People need to see Lucy darling and I can't wait for this to come out because is this like the longest full unedited?
Video that anyone will have access to of Lucy performing 100% Oh, man
It's like it's I think it's worth the cost of the download just to see Lucy darling perform
In the the way she exists right now cuz I imagine she's gonna you're gonna continue taking her all of it. Oh, yeah
I'm just about to start a three-month residency in Chicago and my goal is to open a show that has none of the material that
Material in it when I in three months
I'm gonna evolve it and let it roll which is part of why I really want to do this now
Yeah, because a lot of this material
I'm not gonna say I'm retiring it but it's it's going to have a little nap. Yeah, it's gonna have a little sleepy
Bye and and I really wanted to give myself permission to work on new stuff
and and I've also tried really hard not to put too much video out there because you know how that is like
Yeah, people see things one way and then they you know
So this felt like a really good way to get the act out and so that everybody could see it cuz that everybody can get
out to conventions or magic venues
well
thanks so much for coming to Columbus to hang out with us and I'm looking forward to hanging out with you in the future and
Go listen to Shazam. Go check out Lucy darling at the Chicago magic lounge. Hopefully this will come out while you're still there
Oh, you know what? I'll make sure there's no comes out. Are you still there?
Thanks so much for coming by the penguin magic podcast