- [Kevin DeYoung] This is such an easy topic. This is so simple.
Should churches prioritise ethnic leadership in their pastoral team,
or on their sessions, or whatever their group of leaders is called?
Should that be something that, you know, if you're the senior pastor
you say, "This is a priority to have diversity on our leadership team?"
Guys, what do you think? Do you make that a priority
in your church?
- [Darryl Williamson] We do make that a priority. I think it's essential.
I guess the core question is why? And, of course, that really connects to,
I guess, would be a previous question is that should we pursue ethnic diversity
in our churches? Is that a goal or is it a nice outcome? And I'm of the conviction
that it should be a goal in that the Lord is especially glorified when the power
of the Gospel is displayed, that we can get beyond our obvious
cultural and ethnic differences and find the real essential commonality that we
have in Jesus Christ. And we've experienced His saving us and
we have this new glorious community that comes out of that, and we see that
across those natural boundaries the Lord is glorified. If our leadership is not
diverse then it makes suspect this broader aim. It seems to indicate that,
especially in a society where there's a history of ethnic hierarchy,
if we find ourselves being monocultural in leadership is like, well,
we don't really value it when it comes to power and authority.
We don't want to express that ethnic diversity really matters at its core.
And so we should certainly go after it within our leadership. It's not easy,
but it definitely should be a goal.
- So what would you say? I'm sure you've heard this question before,
you know, folks that are out there saying, "I love that. I see that we glorify God.
Where I'm at its just monocultural." You know, "The part of town I'm in is
all white, or all black, or all Asian, or I'm in a rural county that doesn't have
a lot of diversity." What's the aim then? Does our answer tweak if you're in a
context that just doesn't have a lot of that diversity around your own church?
- [Danny Akin] Well, I think what Darryl said the goal remains the same.
I don't care where you are. Our goal is to build churches on earth
that look like the church in heaven where every tribe, tongue, people,
and nation come together. If you find yourself in a particular
context where everyone is for the most part of the same ethnicity,
then you need to start thinking about missions. You need to start thinking
about church planning. You need to start thinking about,
"How can we still live out this goal in a creative kind of a way?"
And I think there are all sorts of possibilities for that if you're willing
to make the sacrifices, develop the strategies, and go after it.
And I think in part building your own leadership team can be a beginning place,
and a starting place. Recognise again, it may not look exactly here like it does
if you're in an urban area where there is such ethnic diversity by the very nature
of a large city, still... You can still pursue that goal and do so effectively.
You just have to be more creative.
- Yeah. And I like how you took that question with the church is, yes,
our local expression, but if you don't have those same kind
of opportunities, it doesn't mean you just be indifferent to this heavenly vision.
And I would guess that a lot of people, you know, watching these round tables,
you know, these different, you know, ethnic makeup who watch this.
And I think if you're a white church leader watching this, you know,
I would think one of the things that they may need to think of and people like me is
that prioritising some diversity isn't about, you know, it's not
about the tokenism, it's not about affirmative action. But it is
about realising that, again, given our context and what you can do
with where you are that it's not enough to just say, "Hey, we're, you know,
anybody can be an elder here." There's sometimes, in fact,
probably more often than not, some invisible barriers that majority
folks may not see. I remember sitting down and talking to some of our people who
just said, "Hey, every year you do, you know, a family camp and, you know,
my background we don't do camping." Right there I would say,
"You need to get on leadership. I hate camping." I am with you.
I miss my people. We're just a very small sort of thing that...
the sort of things...ways that we do things, and foods we eat,
and places we go to. I think that while we may think anybody
can come here, they all should be welcome, anybody can come, it doesn't always work
that way. And some cultures more readily put themselves forward for leadership
while others don't, or if they're a minority they may not feel like they have
the place to do it. And so it's about having an intentional mindset.
- I think that's the key word, intentionality, and it is something you
actually go after hard.
- So leave us, either one of you, anything practical with a pastor,
a church leader watching this, what's step one or two he might be able
to take to try to live into some of this?
- I think one of the things we have to accept
is that these changes can't happen overnight.
They can't happen overnight without them at the same time being destructive.
So you can make radical policy shifts and impose a new way on the
people but you really want them to grow into this. Ideally, this should be a part
of their growth and recognition that the Lord is going in this direction.
Danny said something I think is very helpful. Wherever the churches are is that
one way to achieve this organically is through planting churches and establishing
right upfront multi-ethnic core teams. And as opposed to trying to break their
cultural structure over existing churches which still can adapt and change.
Certainly they should but it's to get this vision out there and begin to establish
new works, not trying to put a new wine in old wine skins. Let's get new works
and let's fund and support those works, and is really about where we're going.
It's not really about where we've been or even where we are.
Our culture is changing.
There's an abundant ethnic and national diversity in our society.
This positions the church to be a witness to that society
by planting diverse churches.
So I think that's a great way to start.
- And I love what you said. If we can start by giving our people that
Revelation 7 and, you know, all the passages, give them that vision,
that needs to be the groundwork. And, hopefully, if you have real gospel people
in your church, they're going to resonate and say, "That's good. That glorifies God.
Now, let's begin to think creatively, prayerfully in relationship
with one another. How can we help God to get glory in that way?"
Here church planning around the world, how might God be glorified to see people
who aren't normally together come together in the body of Christ?
- Amen.