>>> IT IS 50 PAST THE HOUR.
LIVE LOOK AT TIMES SQUARE THIS
MORNING.
A FOLLOW-UP TO A CONVERSATION WE
HAD ON THE SHOW ON MONDAY.
IN A DEFEAT FOR THE FAR RIGHT,
THE NEWLY ELECTED PRESIDENT OF
THE NATIONS LARGEST PROTESTANT
DENOMINATION SAYS HE WANTS TO
MOVE PAST TRIBAL SOCIAL ISSUES
AND BACK TO THE BIBLE.
COLUMNIST PETER WAYNER DESCRIBED
THE GROUPS VOTE THIS WAY IN HIS
RECENT "NEW YORK TIMES" PIECE.
THE CONVENTIONS NEWLY ELECTED
PRESIDENT, ED LITTON, BARELY
DEFEATED MIKE STONE, THE CHOICE
OF THE DENOMINATIONS INSURGENT
RIGHT.
MR. LITTON, A SOFT SPOKEN PASTOR
IN ALABAMA, WHO IS VERY
CONSERVATIVE THEOLOGICALLY, HAS
MADE RACIAL RECONCILIATION A
HALLMARK OF HIS MINISTRY AND HAS
SAID THAT HE WILL MAKE
INSTITUTIONAL ACCOUNTABILITY AND
CARE FOR SURVIVORS OF SEXUAL
ABUSE PRIORITIES DURING HIS
TWO-YEAR TERM.
AND THE NEWLY ELECTED PRESIDENT
OF THE SOUTHERN BAPTIST
CONVENTION, ED LITTON, JOINS US
NOW.
>> PASTOR, THANKS SO MUCH FOR
BEING WITH US.
WE ARE GRATEFUL THAT YOU WOULD
COME ON THE SHOW OF A
BACKSLIDDEN BAPTIST.
GREAT TO HAVE YOU HERE.
SO JUST TALK ABOUT --
>> JOE, THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME
ON, AND YOURE IN GOOD COMPANY.
>> SO TELL ME, WHAT ARE YOUR
GOALS OVER THE NEXT TWO YEARS?
WELL GET TO ALL THE DETAILS OF,
YOU KNOW, THE INFIGHTING, BUT
RIGHT NOW, WHAT DO YOU HOPE TO
HAVE ACCOMPLISHED OVER THE NEXT
TWO YEARS?
>> WELL, ONE OF THE THINGS WE
WANT TO DO IS JESUS GAVE US A
STRONG COMMISSION TO TAKE THE
GOSPEL
GOSPEL, THE GOOD NEWS OF HIS
LOVE FOR THE WORLD TO THE WORLD,
BUT HE ALSO TOLD US THAT WE ARE
TO LOVE ONE ANOTHER, AND THAT WE
ARE TO BY THIS, THATS OUR
CREDIBILITY, LOVE GOD FIRST,
LOVE ONE ANOTHER, ITS CALLED
THE GREAT COMMANDMENT.
WE WANT TO EXERCISE BOTH OF
THOSE MUSAGECLEMUSCLES, STRONG T
AND GREAT COMPASSION.
>> HELP ME OUT.
YOU AND I ARE PROBABLY AROUND
THE SAME AGE.
I MAY BE A LITTLE OLDER THAN
YOU.
WE BOTH GREW UP IN THE SOUTHERN
BAPTIST CHURCH.
IM JUST CURIOUS, AT WHAT POINT
DID STUDYING THE BIBLE, LIKE WE
DID IN, YOU KNOW, SUNDAY SCHOOL
AND TRAINING UNION AND ON
WEDNESDAY NIGHTS AND FOLLOWING
JESUS WORD, TRYING TO FIGURE
OUT, YOU KNOW, WHAT WERE
SUPPOSED TO DO HERE ON EARTH TO
BE BETTER CHRISTIANS, WHEN DID
THAT FOCUS GET SUPPLANTED BY
ABORTION CRITICAL RACE THEORY,
AND THESE ISSUES THAT
POLITICIANS DEBATE DAY IN AND
DAY OUT?
>> WELL, I THINK IT JUST REVEALS
THAT WE LIVE IN THE REAL WORLD,
JUST LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE, LIKE
YOU DO.
AND WE FACE THE REAL PRESSURES
OF THIS WORLD.
SO THOSE ISSUES COME UP.
THEYRE PART OF OUR LIVES.
SO WHAT THE DIFFERENCE FOR US
NEEDS TO BE, AND ITS EXACTLY
WHAT YOU JUST SAID, THIS IS THE
WAY YOU AND I WERE RAISED, THAT
OUR CONFIDENCE IS IN THE WORD OF
GOD, WHICH IS INFALLIBLE,
SUFFICIENT.
WE TEND TO LOOK AT THE ISSUES OF
OUR CULTURE NOT THROUGH THE GRID
OF CRITICAL RACE THEORY,
ESPECIALLY IN THE AREAS OF
SYSTEMS OF INJUSTICE, WE LOOK AT
THEM THROUGH THE WORD OF GOD.
AND WERE ASKING THE QUESTION,
HOW WOULD GOD HAVE US RESPOND AS
GOOD CITIZENS.
AS GOOD NEIGHBORS, AS PEOPLE WHO
INHABIT THE SAME LAND WITH
EVERYONE ELSE.
>> I MEAN, I WOULD BE A
HYPOCRITE IF I DIDNT SAY I
DIDNT BENEFIT POLITICALLY FROM
CHURCHES BEING INVOLVED BECAUSE
I MEAN, YOU KNOW, EVANGELICAL IS
ONE OF THE REASONS I FIRST GOT
ELECTED IN 1994.
THAT SAID, I WOULD BE IN THE
MIDDLE OF SOME OF THESE CHURCH
SERVICES WHERE THEY WERE TALKING
POLITICS THE ENTIRE TIME, AND I
SAT THERE THINKING, WHAT EVER
HAPPENED TO RINDER UNDER SEIZER
AND UNDER GOD, THAT WHICH IS
GODS?
>> THATS A GREAT QUESTION.
I HAVE BEEN ON THIS JOURNEY, WEE
A SIMILAR AGE, AND WE HAVE GONE
THROUGH THAT.
I HAVE SOMETIMES TALKED TOO
MUCH.
BUT THE CONDITION OF MY HEART IS
THAT GOD DIDNT MAKE US A
POLITICAL ACTION COMMITTEE.
HE MADE US TO BE THE CHURCH.
HE CALLED US SALT AND LIGHT.
WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?
THOSE ARE QUIET INFLUENCES YET
POWERFUL INFLUENCES IN A
COMMUNITY FOR GOOD, THAT WERE
TO CARE ABOUT OUR NEIGHBORS,
LOVE OUR NEIGHBORS.
WHEN THERES INJUSTICE, WERE
SPOO
SPEAK TO THAT INJUSTICE.
WEEP WITH THOSE WHO WEEP AND
REJOICE WITH THOSE WHO REJOICE.
THOSE ARE TERMS GOD TELLS US HOW
TO BE GOOD CITIZENS.
>> THIS IS MIKE BARNICLE, IM IN
NEW YORK AND IM ALSO A
CAFETERIA CATHOLIC.
IM ACROSS THE STREET FROM YOUR
CHURCH.
IM WONDERING IN THIS
CONVERSATION YOURE HAVING WITH
JOE WHICH IS ENLIGHTENING AND
UPLIFTING, THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
IS GOING THROUGH SOME ISSUES
RIGHT NOW IN AMERICA, CENTERED
ON AMERICAN CATHOLIC BISHOPS
RECENTLY WROTE A PROPOSED DRAFT
OF A LETTER BASICALLY URGING
CATHOLIC PASTORS ACROSS THE
COUNTRY NOT TO DISTRIBUTE HOLY
COMMUNION BASICALLY TO THE
PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.
AND IMP WONDERING FROM YOUR
PERSPECTIVE, NOT ABOUT THE
CATHOLIC CHURCH BUT ABOUT FAITH
IN GENERAL AND WORSHIP IN
GENERAL, HOW DID WE BECOME SO
POLITICIZED?
>> WELL, AS I SAID, WE LIVE IN A
POLITICAL WORLD.
AND WE, AS HUMANS, ARE POLITICAL
BEINGS.
AND POLITICS IS ALL ABOUT
LEARNING HOW TO LIVE AND GET
ALONG WITH EACH OTHER.
AND SET GOVERNANCE FOR
OURSELVES, SO WERE A PART OF
THAT.
AND EVERYBODY IS WELCOME TO
THEIR OPINION, BUT LET ME TELL
YOU, THERES 47,000 SOUTHERN
BAPTIST CHURCHES LED BY 47,000
PASTORS AND THEIR PRIMARY
CONCERN IS THE WORD OF GOD TO
THEIR PEOPLE BECAUSE WE WANT OUR
PEOPLE TO BE THE SALT AND LIGHT
THAT GOD HAS CALLED US TO BE.
WHICH MEANS EVEN WHEN WE HAVE
STRONG DISAGREEMENTS, AND I JUST
AFFIRM THE CATHOLIC CHURCH FOR
THEIR STANCE ON PRO-LIFE ISSUES.
WE BELIEVE IN THE SANCTITY OF
WIFE, NOT JUST IN THE WOMB BUT
THROUGH ALL OF LIFE.
WHAT WE WANT TO DO IS ENTER THAT
PUBLIC DISCOURSE WITH CIVILITY.
WE WANT TO HAVE THAT PUBLIC
DISCOURSE WITH KINDNESS AND
TREATING PEOPLE WITH RESPECT.
THIS IS HOW JESUS TREATED
PEOPLE, AND HE IS OUR ROLE
MODEL.
>> AND MIKE, JUST A SIDE NOTE,
AND JUST ME TALKING, IF YOU
ACTUALLY CARE ABOUT WHAT JESUS
SAID ON THE ISSUE, JESUS WAS
CONSTANTLY ASKED BY FAIRSIS, WHY
ARE YOU HAVING DINNER, WHY ARE
YOU SITTING DOWN WITH TAX
COLLECTORS, WHY ARE YOU SITTING
DOWN WITH SINNERS?
AND JESUS ANSWER WAS, I DIDNT
COME TO SAVE THE RIGHTEOUS.
I CAME TO SAVE THE SINNERS.
SO AGAIN, THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
CAN RUN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, BUT
IF YOU JUST LOOK AT THAT VERSE,
KASIE HUNT, ITS PRETTY
STRAIGHTFORWARD WHAT JESUS WOULD
DO, IF ANYBODY LIKE CARES WHAT
WOULD JESUS DO, HE SAID I CAME
HERE TO HAVE COMMUNION WITH THE
SINNERS.
>> RIGHT, AND THATS, I MEAN,
THATS WHERE YOU CAN MAKE THE
BIGGEST DIFFERENCE, RIGHT?
AND I WILL ADMIT, IM NOT A
CATHOLIC OR A BAPTIST.
IM IN FACT YOUR RESIDENT
EPISCOPALIAN, I GUESS.
AND REVEREND, IN THE
EPISCUPALLIAN CHURCH, HAVE HAD
OUR SHARE OF DIVIDES.
ONE OF THE THINGS I WAS
INTERESTED IN AS WE WERE TALKING
ABOUT THIS ON MONDAY AND I HAVE
LEARNED MORE ABOUT YOU IS RACIAL
RECONCILIATION AND HOW THATS
BECOME SOMETHING THAT HAS BEEN
IMPORTANT TO YOU.
YOU SAID THAT WHEN YOU STARTED
THIS GROUP YOURE WORKING ON,
YOU WERE SCARED BECAUSE YOU
DIDNT WANT TO BE CALLED A
BIGOT, BUT YOU ALSO WERE
CONCERNED ABOUT BEING CALLED
WOKE.
CAN YOU EXPLAIN YOUR THINKING
AND YOUR FEARS THERE?
>> WELL, IN MY COMMUNITY, A VERY
CONSERVATIVE GROUP OF PEOPLE,
WOKE IS A PEJORATIVE,
UNFORTUNATELY, BUT THE BIBLE
TELLS US REPEATEDLY, WERE TO
WAKE UP.
AND WE ALL NEED TO WAKE UP TO
REALITIES.
AND THOSE REALITIES ARE THAT GOD
CALLED US INTO THIS WORLD TO BE
THAT SALT AND LIGHT.
SO WHEN I LOOK AROUND AND
STARTED SEEING SOME THINGS AND
SEEING HISTORY THAT I HAD NEVER
REALLY BEEN AWARE OF, WHEN I
RELATED TO PEOPLE WHO ARE REAL
AND FOR TWO YEARS, A GROUP OF US
SAT IN A CAR DEALERSHIP
CONFERENCE ROOM EVERY TWO WEEKS,
HAD LUNCH TOGETHER, AND WE
TALKED ABOUT THE MOST
GUT-WRENCHING REALITIES, NOT
THAT TOOK PLACE IN 1957 BUT TOOK
PLACE 57 DAYS BEFORE THAT
MEETING.
AND THINGS IN MY CITY.
I LOVE MY CITY, BUT MY CITY HAS
A TERRIBLE SCARRED PAST WHEN IT
COMES TO RACE.
AND THERES A HUGE RACIAL
DIVIDE.
AND WERE ASKING GOD TO BRING US
TOGETHER AS BROTHERS AND SISTERS
IN CHRIST.
AND I WANT TO SAY SOMETHING,
REALLY, ITS SIMPLE BUT ITS
TRUE.
IF YOU WANT TO LEARN SOMETHING,
YOU NEED TO STOP TALKING.
YOU NEED TO LISTEN.
AND THE MORE WE DID THAT, THE
MORE I LEARNED.
AND THE MORE I BEGAN TO TALK
ABOUT WHAT MY STRUGGLES WERE,
AND SO WHAT HAPPENED IS AFTER
TWO YEARS WE HAVE BEEN TOGETHER
NOW FOR OVER SEVEN YEARS NOW,
THIS GROUP, WE LOVE EACH OTHER.
AND WE SERVE TOGETHER.
WE HELP EACH OTHER.
WE COME STAND BY EACH OTHER.
BEFORE I WENT TO THE SOUTHERN
BAPTIST CONVENTION, MY RACIAL
RECONCILIATION GROUP GATHERED IN
MY OFFICE AND PRAYED OVER ME
BECAUSE WERE FRIENDS.
I THINK THATS THE SOLUTION, NOT
JUST WITHIN OUR DENOMINATIONAL
GROUPS BUT THE SOLUTION IN THIS
NATION, THAT WE WOULD TURN OUR
HEARTS AND STOP BEING ENEMIES
WITH ONE ANOTHER.
>> YEAH, YOU KNOW, I WAS GOING
THROUGH TWITTER ON SATURDAY
MORNING AND I SAW AN ATLANTIC
JOURNAL CONSTITUTION STORY THAT
ACTUALLY MY BROTHER WAS IN.
AND THEIR CHURCH HAD SIX WHITE
GUYS GET TOGETHER WITH SIX BLACK
GUYS.
THEY HAVE GOTTEN TOGETHER OVER
THE PAST YEAR AND A HALF.
THEY HAD BIBLE STUDIES, AND YOU
KNOW THE OLD SAYING THAT THE
MOST SEGREGATED HOUR OF THE WEEK
IS ON SUNDAY MORNINGS IN CHURCH.
ITS REMARKABLE, MY BROTHER SAID
ITS CHANGED HIS LIFE.
ITS CHANGED THE WAY HE LOOKS AT
THE WORLD, PASTOR.
>> IT DOES.
AND LET ME SAY THIS, TOO.
AT THE SOUTHERN BAPTIST
CONVENTION THIS YEAR, WE MADE A
STRONG STATEMENT ABOUT THAT VERY
ISSUE.
THAT WE WERE GOING TO STAND FOR
THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN SEXUALLY
ABUSED.
WERE GOING TO MAKE OUR CHURCHES
SAFER PLACES, BUT WERE ALSO
GOING TO WORK AT RACIAL
RECONCILIATION, BECAUSE THE
BIBLE GIVES US THE TOOLS.
ITS WHAT WE CALL GOSPEL
RECONCILIATION.
IF YOU LOVE THE GOSPEL, YOU HAVE
TO LOVE PEOPLE.
PEOPLE DONT LOOK LIKE YOU,
THINK LIKE YOU, OR VOTE LIKE
YOU, AND YOU HAVE TO SET THOSE
THINGS ASIDE AND SAY WHAT REALLY
MATTERS IN THIS LIFE AND WHAT
MATTERS IN THIS WORLD.
ULTIMATELY, WERE ALL GOING TO
BE ACCOUNTABLE TO GOD.
WHEN WE ARE, WHEN HE HOLDS US
ACCOUNTABLE, WE WANT TO SEE OUR
LIVES HAVE MADE A DIFFERENCE.
>> PRESIDENT OF THE SOUTHERN