>> ALL RIGHT.
WELCOME BACK.
SO, WHERE NOW FROM HERE?
LET’S TALK ABOUT THIS MORNING
WITH ZOE CLARK, PROGRAM DIRECTOR
FOR MICHIGAN PUBLIC RADIO.
CHAD--
I’M KIND OF BOUNCING AROUND
HERE, BUT DOWN IN THE LOWER
RIGHT, CHAD LIVENGOOD.
SENIOR EDITOR OF CRAIN’S DETROIT
BUSINESS.
ABOVE HIM, DENNIS, PLUNKETT
COONEY AND FORMER MAYOR OF ROYAL
OAK AND PORTIA ROBERSON, HEAD OF
FOCUS HOPE.
PORTIA, YOU AND I WERE TEXTING
AND IT WAS EMOTIONAL AND AS MAYA
RUDOLPH SAID SHE CHECKED MORE
BOXES THAN A DISQUALIFIED
BALLOT.
WHAT DID IT FEEL LIKE FOR YOU AS
A WOMAN OF COLOR?
>> I HAVE BEEN SURPRISED OVER
AND OVER AGAIN HOW EMOTIONAL I
GET BY SEEING MYSELF REFLECTED
IN THE SECOND HIGHEST POSITION
IN THE LAND.
I MEAN, IT REALLY IS MONUMENTAL
TO SEE -- TO WATCH YESTERDAY AS
SHE APPROACHED THE PODIUM AND
TALKED ABOUT HER MOTHER AND HOW
MUCH HER MOTHER COULD NOT HAVE
IMAGINED THAT THIS WOULD ONE DAY
BE HER MOMENT AND I THINK
EVERYONE FELT THAT.
YOU KNOW, AND I THINK THAT
WATCHING ALL OF THEM COME ON THE
STAGE YESTERDAY, IT JUST REALLY,
TO ME, FELT LIKE A REFLECTION OF
AMERICA.
IT FELT LIKE WHAT AMERICA HOPES
TO BE IN THAT THERE WERE ALL
KINDS OF RACES AND CULTURES, AND
WE’RE BRINGING THAT FULL
EXPERIENCE NOW TO NOT ONLY THE
WHITE HOUSE, BUT ALSO TO THE
NAVAL OBSERVATORY WHERE THE
VICE-PRESIDENT IS GOING TO
RESIDE.
IT WAS QUITE A DAY.
>> DEVIN: IT FEELS REDUCTIVE TO
TALK ABOUT DEMOGRAPHIC
HAPPENINGS IN ELECTIONS, WHEN
YOU LOOK HOW LONG IT FOUND A
WOMAN TO TAKE A PLACE ON A
TICKET.
I’M GOING TO ASSUME IT FELT
SIMILARLY TO YOU, TOO.
>> SURE, AS A NONPARTISAN WHO
GETS THIS WATCH THIS BOTH SORT
OF FROM A JOURNALISTIC POINT,
BUT ALSO AS A HISTORICAL POINT.
YOU CAN’T NOT FEEL EMOTIONAL
WHEN YOU SEE LITTLE GIRLS LAST NIGHT IN WILMINGTON, DELAWARE,
NIGHT IN WILMINGTON, DELAWARE,
LOOKING UP AT VICE-PRESIDENT
ELECT HARRIS, IT WOULD BE A
DEMOCRAT, REPUBLICAN, A
LIBERTARIAN, HA, HA, A HISTORY
MAKING MOMENT.
BUT THE FACT IS WHETHER OR NOT
YOU VOTED FOR THIS TICKET,
HISTORY HAS BEEN MADE THIS WEEK.
>> DEVIN: WELL, LET’S MOVE INTO
SOME OF THE MURKIER ISSUES HERE
THAT STILL AWAIT US THEN.
DENNIS, YOU’VE BEEN A PROUD
SUPPORTER OF THE PRESIDENT RIGHT
THROUGH THESE PAST FOUR YEARS,
BUT THE REMARKS THAT HE MADE ON
ELECTION NIGHT ABOUT 2:30 IN THE
MORNING WERE VERY TROUBLING TO A
LOT OF PEOPLE.
IT PORTENDS A FIGHT THAT’S STILL
AHEAD.
DO YOU THINK IT’S TIME, THE OLD
SAYING BACK WHERE I COME FROM,
THAT IF 10 PEOPLE TELL YOU IT’S
DRUNK, IT’S TIME TO LIE DOWN.
IS IT TIME FOR THE PRESIDENT TO
LIE DOWN OR IS THERE REALLY A
FIGHT TO BE HAD HERE?
>> WELL, YOU KNOW, DEVIN, FIRST
OF ALL, I ALWAYS CELEBRATE FIRST
WHEREVER THEY HAPPEN IN
POLITICAL LIFE, HAVING BEEN A
CANDIDATE MYSELF THESE ARE
ALWAYS TOUGH ELECTIONS.
>> DEVIN: SURE.
>> THE REALITY IS,
UNFORTUNATELY, IT’S PREDICTABLE
THAT THE NATIONAL MEDIA AND
WASHINGTON DEMOCRATS HAVE CALLED
FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP, THE
CAMPAIGN AND THEIR SUPPORTERS TO
ALL LAY DOWN AND PLAY DEAD.
QUITE FRANKLY, THEY SACRIFICED
THAT HIGH GROUND OVER THE LAST
FOUR YEARS WITH THE CONSTANT
DRUMBEAT AT THIS ELECTION IN
2016 WAS ILLEGITIMATE, PRESIDENT
TRUMP WAS ILLEGITIMATE.
THEY CAN PAUSE AND CELEBRATE FOR
THE TIME BEING.
YES, THERE WILL BE CHALLENGES.
THE BURDEN OF PROOF WILL BE ON
THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN.
THIS IS A PROCESS WE’VE BEEN
THROUGH BEFORE IN 2000.
THE REPUBLIC SURVIVED.
IT THRIVED, IT CONTINUED.
SO WE WILL HAVE CONTINUED SOME
LEGAL CHALLENGES AND THOSE WILL
HAVE TO PLAY OUT.
THEY’RE GOING TO PLAY OUT VERY
QUICKLY BECAUSE THE DATES, WHICH
CAN’T BE CHANGED BY COURTS, IN
TERMS OF BORDER CANVASSERS AND
THOSE OTHERS WHO CERTIFY
ELECTIONS WILL HAPPEN VERY
QUICKLY IN NOVEMBER AND I THINK
WE’RE ALL HEADED TOWARDS THE
DECEMBER 14TH DATE WHEN THE
ELECTORS MAKE THEIR DECISION IN
WASHINGTON D.C.
>> DEVIN: THIS DOESN’T LOOK TO
BE, IN A NUMBER OF THESE STATES,
PARTICULARLY IN MICHIGAN, BUT IT
DOESN’T LOOK TO BE A
PARTICULARLY CLOSE ELECTION
OVERALL ANYMORE, DENNIS.
YOU KNOW, PEOPLE TALK ABOUT HOW
DIFFICULT IT IS TO UNSEAT A
INCUMBENT PRESIDENT.
IT’S VERY DIFFICULT AND YET IT
LOOKS LIKE JOE BIDEN’S MARGIN OF
VICTORY NATIONALLY IS GOING TO
BE LARGER THAN RONALD REAGAN
OVER JIMMY CARTER SO OFTEN TO
POINTED TO AS A LANDMARK.
IS THIS ELECTION CLOSE ENOUGH TO
YOU THEN TO BE FIGHTING THIS
WAY?
>> WELL, DEVIN, AS IT IN 2016 AS
WE ALL REMEMBER, THE RAZOR THIN
MARGINS IN SEVERAL STATES
PROVIDED DRURP DONALD TRUMP WITH
VICTORY.
I WAS LOOKING AT THE VOTES, LESS
THAN 100,000 VOTES IN SEVERAL
KEY BATTLEGROUND STATES AND WITH
NEARLY 150 MILLION VOTING, IT’S
A RAZOR THIN MARGIN.
THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN SAYS THEY ARE
GOING TO MAKE CHALLENGES AND
THEY HAVE THE BURDEN OF PROOF
AND PLAY OUT IN THE COURT SYSTEM
AND IN OUR TIME HONORED
TRADITION MOVING FORWARD WITH AN
ELECTION.
WE ALSO HAVE VOTES STILL BEING
COUNTED.
WE PROBABLY WILL HAVE A RECOUNT
IN GEORGIA, PERHAPS A RECOUNT IN
PENNSYLVANIA UNDER THEIR STATE
LAWS, SO, I THINK WE’RE JUST
FOLLOWING THROUGH THE PROCESS
AND I DON’T THINK WE’RE IN ANY
KIND OF CRISIS RIGHT NOW.
WE’RE JUST MOVING THROUGH THE
PROCESS AS DEMOCRATS AND
REPUBLICANS PREPARED FOR.
BOTH HAD--
JOE BIDEN HAD AN ARMY OF LAWYERS
READY TO GO IN EVERY STATE.
>> DEVIN: CHAD, WEIGH IN IF YOU
WOULD.
WHEN WE RECOUNTS WE TYPICALLY
SEE MOVEMENT OF VOTES IN THE
HUNDREDS NOT THE THOUSANDS.
WHAT’S YOUR THOUGHT, IS DENNIS
RIGHT, WE’RE NOT REALLY IN A
CRISIS YET?
>> WE’RE NOT IN A TOTAL CRISIS
YET, BUT WHEN YOU GET EMERGENCE
OF 150,000 HERE IN MICHIGAN,
MARGINS, YOU’RE NOT GOING TO
CHANGE THAT.
SOME OF THE STATES IN THE
10,000, YOU KNOW, TO 50,000
RANGE, THAT MIGHT BE, I MEAN,
THEY’RE GOING TO--
THEY HAVE THE RIGHT TO ASK FOR
RECOUNT, AND THEY CAN GO FORWARD
WITH THAT.
AND JOHN JAMES IN MICHIGAN COULD
STILL ASK FOR RECOUNT, EVEN
THOUGH HE’S DOWN BY 60,000
VOTES.
SO, THEY HAVE--
THE CANDIDATES HAVE THE RIGHT TO
DO THIS, BUT IS IT WORTH THE
EFFORT OR IS IT EXACTLY GOING TO
BE, YOU KNOW, FRUITFUL?
THAT’S QUESTIONABLE WHEN YOU’RE
TALKING ABOUT 60,000 VOTES AND
CHANGING AN ELECTION AT THIS
RATE.
AND THEN THERE’S STILL THIS
ISSUE OF THE ELECTORS.
THERE IS THIS DOOMSDAY SCENARIO
OUT THERE IN MICHIGAN AT LEAST,
WHERE DEMOCRATIC ATTORNEYS ARE
PREPARING FOR THE POTENTIAL
WHERE THE REPUBLICAN LEGISLATURE
TRIES TO APPOINT ALL REPUBLICAN
TRUMP ELECTORS AND TRIES TO--
IT’S VERY DOOMSDAY SCENARIO, BUT
IT’S OUT THERE AND THEN THERE’S
STILL A LOT OF THINGS THAT COULD
HAPPEN BETWEEN NOW AND DECEMBER
14TH WHEN THE ELECTORS FORMALLY
ELECT THE PRESIDENT.
>> DEVIN: PORTIA, YOU’RE AN
ATTORNEY YOU’VE WORKED FOR THE
DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE.
I KNOW YOU DON’T BELIEVE THAT
JUST--
BECAUSE YOU DON’T WANT TO STEAL
THE JOY OF THE PEOPLE WHO
BELIEVE THEY’VE WON THE RACE IS
ENOUGH TO STAND DOWN, ARE YOU
OKAY WITH THE PRESIDENT TAKING
EVERY LEGAL AVENUE THAT’S
AVAILABLE TO HIM?
>> I THINK ABSOLUTELY.
BECAUSE AT THE END OF THE DAY
WHEN THE TRANSITION ACTUALLY
HAPPENS, AND IT WILL HAPPEN ON
JANUARY 20TH, WHETHER WE GET A
CONCESSION FROM DONALD TRUMP OR
NOT, WE NEED TO MOVE FORWARD IN
THIS COUNTRY AND SO, I’M NOT
CONCERNED WITH PEOPLE EXERCISING
EVERY RIGHT THAT THEY HAVE TO
PROVE TO THEMSELVES, EITHER THAT
THEY’VE WON OR THAT IN THIS CASE
THAT DONALD TRUMP HAS LOST, BUT,
YEAH, NO, I DON’T HAVE A PROBLEM
WITH IT.
I THINK WHAT WE’VE SEEN IS SOME
TACTICS THAT WERE USED
PARTICULARLY AT TCF IN THE LAST
WEEK THAT WERE UNBECOMING OF
EVERY PARTY.
I THINK THAT THERE WERE A NUMBER
OF PEOPLE WHO WERE DOWN THERE
MAKING SURE THAT EVERY VOTE WAS
COUNTED.
THERE WERE PEOPLE WHO
VOLUNTEERED TO COUNT THOSE VOTES
AND I THINK, NOW, THE
DISPARAGING COMMENTS FROM THE
CURRENT PRESIDENT ABOUT DETROIT
AND ABOUT IT BEING A CORRUPT
CITY AND THE FACT THAT WE WERE
DELIVERING BALLOTS AND SO ON, SO
THE FORTH IN THE MIDDLE OF THE
NIGHT WERE ERRONEOUS AND CRAZY,
BUT THAT’S BEEN SORT OF THE
TENDENCY FROM THIS
ADMINISTRATION TO MAKE THESE
WILD ACCUSATIONS WITHOUT ANY
BASIS IN FACT, BUT IF THEY FEEL
THEY NEED TO DO LEGAL CHALLENGES
IN ORDER TO PROVE THEMSELVES
THAT THEY ARE NO LONGER
PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES,
SO BE IT.
>> DEVIN: ZOE, THE COLD WATER TO
THROW ON ALL OF IT, IN FACT, I
SAID YESTERDAY ON TWITTER, I
FELT LIKE A KILL JOY FOR
POINTING THIS OUT.
IT LOOKED LIKE WE HAD ALL KINDS
OF SUPER SPREADER EVENTS ACROSS
THE COUNTRY, INCLUDING DENNIS
AFTER THE NOTRE DAME WIN OVER
CLEMSON LAST NIGHT.
BUT THE ZOE, THE REALITY IS WE
HAVE A MASSIVE PROBLEM
DEVELOPING AS MANY PREDICTED IT
WOULD WOULD CORONAVIRUS, WHICH
IS A REALITY BOTH ON THE
PRACTICE CAL TERMS IN OUR STATE
WHERE WE’RE WATCHING CASES RISE,
BUT A MASSIVE CHALLENGE FACING
JOE BIDEN AS HE TAKES OVER THE
PRESIDENCY.
>> AND GRETCHEN WHITMER
CONTINUING, WE’VE BEEN TALKING
ABOUT HISTORIC TURNOUT IN
MICHIGAN AND THE COUNTRY IN
TERMS OF VOTING, BUT WE ALSO HIT
SOME HORRIBLE RECORDS THIS WEEK
WHICH WAS COUNTRY-WIDE AND
THROUGHOUT THE NATION AND HERE
IN MICHIGAN AS WELL WHICH WAS
SOME OF THE SINGLE HIGHEST DAYS
OF THE CASES.
>> DEVIN: YEAH.
>> AND WE KNOW THAT THE STATE
HOUSE APPEARS TO HAVE BEEN KEPT
IN REPUBLICAN HANDS, SO THAT
MEANS, BEGINNING IN JANUARY, AS
WELL, MICHIGAN IS GOING TO LOOK
SORT OF SIMILAR IN TERMS OF
GOVERNMENT WITH A DEMOCRATIC
GOVERNOR WHO IS PUSHING HARD ON
SOME OF THESE CORONAVIRUS
MEASURES AND A REPUBLICAN
LEGISLATURE THAT SEEMS TO JUST
NOT WANT TO ENGAGE AT THIS POINT
IN ANY NEW MANDATES AND SO
THAT’S UNFORTUNATE AND
CONCERNING AND SOMETHING THAT WE
WILL CONTINUE TO WATCH IN THE
NEW YEAR.
>> DEVIN: IN FACT, DENNIS, I’M
CURIOUS HOW YOU FEEL THE
PRESIDENT’S SUPPORTERS WILL
REACT TO A NEW SET OF MARCHING
ORDERS WHEN IT COMES TO
CORONAVIRUS SHOULD THEY COME
FROM JOE BIDEN, SAY, IN THE FORM
OF A NATIONAL MASK MANDATE.
WHAT DO YOU SEE AHEAD, DENNIS,
IN THE FIGHT AGAINST THE VIRUS.
>> I DON’T SEE JUST AS A TRUMP
SUPPORTER ISSUE OR A BIDEN
SUPPORTER ISSUE, THIS IS
MICHIGANDERS AND AMERICANS, I
THINK, WILL INITIALLY REACT WITH
SOME DIFFICULTY.
I THINK WE WERE CHATTING ABOUT
THIS BEFORE WE CAME ON AND
EVERYONE IS VERY FATIGUED.
EVERYONE WANTS TO, YOU KNOW, GET
TO THE FINISH LINE ON THIS.
I THINK WE NEED TO HEAR SOME OF
THE THINGS THAT NEED TO HAPPEN,
WE NEED TO BE TOLD MORE ABOUT
THE SAFE AND TESTED VACCINE THAT
IS BEING DEVELOPED, VACCINES, SO
WE CAN GIVE PEOPLE SOME HOPE.
AND I DO STRONGLY ENCOURAGE THE
GOVERNOR TO PLEASE STOP TREATING
THE REPUBLICAN LEGISLATURE LIKE
A LEPER COLONY AND TO WORK
TOGETHER.
WE’VE STILL NOT SEEN THAT AND
IT’S VERY DISCONCERTING.
WE’RE TALKING ABOUT UNITY.
I AGREE WITH THAT, WE’RE GOING
TO GET PAST THIS AS AMERICANS,
THIS ELECTION PROCESS, AND WE’RE
GOING TO MOVE FORWARD TOGETHER.
AND I ENCOURAGE THAT, BUT AT THE
SAME TIME, DURING THIS PROCESS
AND DURING COVID, WE NEED TO
WORK TOGETHER AND THAT JUST
SIMPLY IS NOT HAPPENING FROM
GOVERNOR WHITMER AND I’M VERY
DISAPPOINTED.
>> DEVIN: CHAD, 15 OR 20 SECONDS
LEFT HERE, WHY DON’T YOU ADDRESS
THAT.
THE SCHISM BETWEEN THE GOVERNOR
AND LEGISLATURE WHICH A HEE--
AN ELECTION IS NOT GOING TO
CHANGE.
>> THE LEGISLATURE DID NOT THAT
LOCKDOWN DID BEND THE CURVE.
THE CURVE LOOKED LIKE THIS AND
NOW THIS, A VERTICAL ASCENT.
WE’RE AT 6200 CASES YESTERDAY.
29,000 CASES IN THE LAST SEVEN
DAYS, IT WAS MORE THAN WE HAD IN
THE ENTIRE MONTH OF SEPTEMBER.
>> DEVIN: YEAH, YEAH, IT’S A
GREAT WAY OF PUTTING IT.
GANG, THANKS SO MUCH FOR THE
CONVERSATION.
GOOD TO SEE YOU ALL IF ONLY
DIGITALLY.
THANKS FOR YOUR TIME, HAVE A
GREAT DAY AND STAY SAFE.