Film Courage: Why do you like films that explore the theme of life and death?
Michael J. Epstein, Filmmaker, Writer, Musician, and Scientist: I think the reason I got interested
in making art in the first place is to deal with fears and existential ideas and to get
a better understanding of like what it is to exist? What it is to relate to other people?
Those existential ideas are are the things that drive me to create art that I love in seeing in
art and the things that drive me to create art so when I'm looking at films I absolutely love
thematically driven films and the the meaning of life I guess for for lack of a better way to
put it and the idea of what what we're facing how do we face death what does it mean to die
how do we experience that is it really interesting topics to me can you remember one of the first
films that you watched that explored that and you you talked about music earlier and how sometimes
music just would speak to you whereas an actual conversation you wouldn't receive that feeling
right yeah I think one of the first films that really connected with me thematically or with
this type of connection is the the film Phantasm and it's really an exploration of grief and it's
really about this this kid it starts out there's a young boy who lost his parents, the parents
have died. They don't really get get into it too much that's what the starting point of the film
and it's about his way of coping with that and there are these forces and there's the
there's his the I would call it the manifestations of his like worries about what what has happened
to his parents and those manifest as this this evil undertaker who's stealings souls basically
and bringing them to enslave them in this other dimension it's a very strange concept but it but
it really spoke to me as a kid because it's like what would a little kid how would a little kid
come to terms with the idea of like their parents no longer existing what does that mean what what
would they be afraid could have happened to them Beyond just their non-existence and I remember
seeing that as a young boy and I had no idea what to make of the film first I've seen it a hundred
times and I still have no idea what to make of the film in some sense but it really connected with me
and it was something that I remembered after for a long time I wanted to live in that world and
explore it in my mind in a way that I had not done with other films there are films that I Revisited
as a kid like I love Star Wars or something but it never connected with me in that in that type
of way do you remember who introduced you to that film I think I saw it on TV I just was was I loved
watching weird horror movies monster movies I loved staying up late and looking at the the
channels and my parents were mostly tolerant of me doing being being a weird kid and doing all
that stuff so yeah I think I just I just ended up seeing it on TV and then later one of my
close friends and I we basically just spent every day going to the video store and like
looking through the the horror section and the cult movie section to find what is the strangest
looking thing that we can that we can find and I definitely Revisited Phantasm in the other films
in the series as part of that process what are the complex questions about life and death right
I think ultimately we're all trying to find some purpose in life we're all trying to find some
way of understanding what we are why it is that we experience the things that we experience why
it is that other people don't always mesh with us what why we have trouble communicating these
internal ideas and ultimately we all I think that even people who say they don't fear it and
maybe they create stories that make them fear it less I think we all fear the unknown in general
and so when we think about death we don't really know what it feels like what what it seems like
the concept of of life at all I don't think we really understand what does it mean to be sentient
doesn't mean anything are we just basically machines that that function are we the same
as like a rock essentially but we have these these functions these chemical functions that
make us perceive ourselves as something more more meaningful and those are all things that I think
are pretty Universal to people I think every Everybody explores those ideas and so for me
I want to be able to relate to people in our understanding of those ideas and I think
some people approach that through something like religion or other kinds of explanatory approaches
to it where they say here's okay here's what happens like this is what happens when you
die this is what here's how you were created and here's what life means this is they hear the rules
but none of that ever connected with me so I'm looking for something that's that's different
from that and I find that the abstraction that's presented in film and in storytelling is a really
a great way for me to explore that what is theme theme I think is the underlying idea
of a film and I know that idea sounds sounds vague but I think the underlying way that that film
connects to us in an internal meaningful sense and I often talk about theme and thesis like
they're intertwined and I know some some people will divide them in a in a more strict way but I
think of theme is this underlying idea and thesis is what the filmmaker or the Storyteller believes
about that idea wants to express about that idea and I love the the the the approach to filmmaking
or to storytelling where you say what is the the the concept that I want to explore what is the
idea that I want to explore what is the fear that I want to explore what is the experience I want to
explore and then what is it that I want to share about my own thoughts on that experience what is
it that I want to share about my fears related to that experience and that's going to be my thesis
and when I'm writing a story and I have characters in the film maybe those different characters they
all should they all should be related to that that theme their behaviors their their feelings their
approaches to things and the plot Arc as well should all be related to that theme and they may
have all different ideas about that theme they may have all different manifestations of that theme
and ultimately me as a Storyteller I'm I think if you're doing a good job you're siding with
somebody or you're you're saying that you believe you have some belief you're not just saying
here's a bunch of stuff to think about you're saying here's a bunch of stuff and here's what
I think about that and that's the thesis approach to it and that's how I like to structure stories
same a big part of your writing process it's a very big part I think it's the
most important thing I think it's the the part that meaningfully connects with people
I think if you're not writing for theme I don't I don't want to criticize writers too much but I
think if you're not writing for theme all you're doing is emotionally manipulating people you're
just basically saying I'm gonna create characters that go through experiences that emotionally
manipulate you so you experience those emotions empathetically or so on but it doesn't really to
me that doesn't really serve a purpose what serves a purpose is causing the viewer or the reader
depending on the context to be introspective about their relationship to that theme or that idea and
their experiences with that and then to be able to express to them what it is that I think about
it or what what I where what I'm maybe maybe even now what I think but what is most important to me
about that theme or that idea and I think that's a meaningful way again to to connect with people
and to have some push and pull into so ultimately the goal is that when somebody leaves the movie
if they if they watch a movie that you've made they walk away with something to think about
and explore and to to make their lives better in some way how do you incorporate theme into stories
well usually I start out with a theme as a at the ground level at that nugget level of Storytelling
I think about what is the the topic that I want to explore so I know a lot of people are like oh
I have this idea for a story this is the character this is what they do so on for me it's more often
like this is a really interesting topic now this is the topic I want to explore here's what I think
about it now how do I create characters and how do I create a story that helped me to explore that
so maybe that's an opposite approach of many people who are like oh I've got this character
I'm going to put them in this world and now maybe I'll think about a theme later I'm more like what
is it that I want to say why don't because to me if I don't have something I want to say why am I
making the movie right why bother making a movie if you've got nothing to say I guess if you're
it's just revenue or but you're making a popcorn movie to get paid or something like that that's
fine and there's nothing wrong with that but for me if I'm if I'm creating something that's our
real creative art I have to think about what's important to me at this moment how do I want
to express that and then how can I build that from that idea and so every character Behavior
every character typically takes a different perspective on that theme that's that's one of
the approaches I have I say what here's here's a character how would this character relate to this
theme how would they behave in association with this theme here's another character
maybe it's a contrastive character for example you might be a protagonist antagonist but it
might not it might be other types of characters how do they relate to this theme how would they
behave in association with that and now what is the story that allows me to go on a journey with
those characters that reinforces whatever my thesis is associated with it so again
that that the beginning and ending are really important to me because you have to tell the
audience where you're starting Place everything set it up there and then at the end you have to
drive home what is the thesis what is the idea that you want them to to walk away with and some
of that is maybe because I come from academic writing so I'm used to the the idea of writing
a a persuasive academic article and it's really that that same type of type of approach you're
trying to tell somebody here's what I believe in in the scientific realm here's the evidence
of that and then here's the conclusion so a symmetrical story within a certain theme is
more important to you than just this is a great character and I wonder what would happen if a b
and c entered their life yeah it really does not characters don't interest me in that way typically
I'm I very rarely am thinking like oh here's a character I love like what can I do with this
character and I know some people approach writing that way and there's that's totally fine as well
but yeah no I'm rarely interested in character I think character drama is the most boring part of
movies I don't I don't like watching movies that are driven by character drama because
I feel like again it's just manipulative it's just it's just like I want the if I want the viewer to
experience something I can throw a character in and I can make them sad or I can give them
heartbreak or I can give them illness and that to me is just an emotional manipulation it's not
it's not a meaningful Storytelling and sometimes people like those movies and sometimes I like
those movies where I'm like I'm just gonna have an empathetic experience with a character totally
fine but for me the the the better art or the more meaningful long lasting art is one in which
the character serves that theme the character really they're they're a manifestation they're
a symbol they're they're a metaphor for something else that you're trying to explore
is there a way we can further pin down what theme means is there a movie that we could think of that
explains theme sure I think every I think every movie has themes whether it's intended or not
first of all so some some writers will say well I didn't write with any themes in mind I think it
there's something innate and something that you're always doing as a Creator as a Storyteller where
you're gonna themes are gonna emerge because your subconscious ideas are gonna emerge one movie that
I was watching recently again and revisiting again for the first time in quite a long time was The
Exorcist and I think the Exorcist is a really interesting movie because I remember it when
I thought about it as when I experienced it as a younger person I thought oh this is a story about
a girl who's possessed by a demon and this stuff happens and it's really about like that possession
but now watching it I had a completely different experience I don't think the movie is actually
really much about Reagan about the girl at all the first section of the movie is really about
her mother's experience with her child and about the helplessness of of seeing somebody
you love go through something that's that's difficult and have a health of a health issue
and so it's really exploring this idea of like how does a mother deal with not being able to
help their child in distress and it really the emotional Arc really happens with with
the mother not not really with the child and then we start to see the the movie shifts and builds
like a layered thematic idea where we see the the priests starts to look at what it means to
have faith what what what is what does faith mean can you really maintain faith in the face of the
most terrible thing seeing seeing a child being brutally treated this way and ultimately he he
has to make a sacrifice he has to accept his fate in order to to to show that he holds faith enough
he holds faith enough to sacrifice himself to to ultimately succeed in what he believes in and so
really it's the Thematic ideas there are really again about the mother's love for a child and
the helplessness associated with the illness and the the priests basically looking at doubt
right and being taken seriously too because right she had a lot of issues getting people to believe
well that's a big thing yeah and it really I we have so many people now who have so much so many
struggles with the medical system where they go in and the doctor says nothing wrong with you
there's nothing wrong with you so yeah absolutely it's a really really strong I don't even call it a
metaphor it's literally presented in the film but yeah it's really really interesting exploration
of like what it means to have an illness that's not really visible because they they the doctors
can't measure it right they're trying to measure it they're like we tested her nothing's wrong with
her none of those tests are going to show that there's like a demon possessing her right so
yeah so I think that speaks to a lot of people as well it's a very rich movie I think it's it's a
really fantastic movie and a lot of people think of it as like oh it's a horror movie it's pretty
good whatever but I don't I wouldn't even it's a horror movie because these are these are all
horrific ideas the mother dealing with their child being sick the medical system refusing to to do
anything about a sick child fighting with your own faith and self-doubt these are all horrific
ideas and these are all universal existential ideas as well do you think movies from the past
maybe 30 years were more theme driven I think especially when you look at films in the 70s
I think they were really really heavily theme driven and I think you had a lot more of the
flexibility within the studio system where it was a little more auteur feeling where
filmmakers were allowed to make things that were a little unusual not necessarily structured
in a in a way that we can break down as much as we break down modern films all conform a little more
to a very specific structure and so I think when you look at those I think they they all really
feel you feel the Thematic or the thesis-driven elements of those films a lot more than you do
in modern films now that said I think even my my least favorite films right like the Marvel films
and all these superhero films they have themes they they absolutely have themes they have themes
about militarization they have themes about the the the Superman vs Batman movie where they they
destroy everything their their themes about like what is the collateral cost of of fighting a war
there are definitely are ideas there that are that are interesting but I don't know that most
viewers are taking those ideas home with them or or relating them to something existential
the way that maybe a lot of the popular movies in the in the 70s really connected with people.