DAVID SPEERS, PRESENTER: Peter Dutton, good morning. Welcome to the program.
PETER DUTTON, HOME AFFAIRS MINISTER: Thanks, David.
SPEERS: We’ve just had news through that New South Wales has confirmed another case
of coronavirus in that state again, someone who had been in Iran. That brings us to the
travel ban now applying to Iran. There have been some 388 cases there. The real number
may well be much higher than that. But, look, this travel ban is not applying to South Korea
where there are more than 2,300 cases. Why is that?
DUTTON :Well, there are a few reasons. Firstly - of the 106 deaths that are reported outside
of China - 43 of those have been in Iran so that's the highest number of deaths. Obviously
the Chief Medical Officers will look at that fact. But also whether or not the countries
have preparedness within their hospital systems, whether or not Iran really has a full handle
on how many cases they have and I think that's been the jolt out of Iran - just the sudden
surge given that there had been no reporting or little reporting of cases before that.
So all of those factors feed into it.
SPEERS: I appreciate the death rate might be higher in Iran but it's the same virus
strain we're talking about here, isn't it, in all of these countries? We're not talking
about a different virus, still transmits the same way, still does the same thing to your body.
DUTTON: Yes, it does.
SPEERS: So why not extend this travel ban to places like South Korea and Italy where
there are almost 20 times as many reported cases?
DUTTON Well, as the Chief Medical Officer has pointed out, it's not possible to extend
the ban to every country and we'll see what phase we move into next, but there's particular
concern about the lack of reporting out of Iran. The high - the very high death rate
and I don't think...
SPEERS: That's my point. I take the point about the death rate being higher but the
sheer number of cases, the scale of this in South Korea where we have a lot more traffic
back and forth, why isn't the travel ban applying there?
DUTTON: David, again if you look at the underreporting or the lack of reporting coming out of Iran
to start with I think indicated that there was a real concern as to whether they had
a handle on the numbers, I think everyone the numbers we're talking about, relative
to South Korea or elsewhere at the moment, are potentially well underestimated. So it's
also confidence in the numbers that have been reported out of different jurisdictions and
obviously South Korea has a more advanced health system and they have been reporting
numbers for a period of time. So I think there are key differences between those different markets.
SPEERS: Can I ask what powers the Border Force Commissioner has here - the PM indicated the
other day that he'd be looking at restrictions at airports and so on. If a flight were to
arrive today at Sydney Airport, Melbourne Airport from South Korea and a number of people
were presenting as unwell, what would happen?
DUTTON: Well, those people would be put into isolation. So the first thing here for us
deal with is the health of Australians, obviously our front-line officers, we want to make sure
they're safe. So that's the first priority for the Commissioner, but these people then
will be put into isolation. There are arrangements in place with each of the territory...
SPEERS: But everyone else on that plane can come on in?
DUTTON: Well, there would be a call made about the extent of the illness. People within the
immediate proximity of this person or who had come into contact with that person would be identified.
SPEERS: That's what I want to ask - can the Commissioner make a call and block a planeload
of people coming in?
DUTTON: Yes, he can, if he believes there's grounds to do so, but that would be highly
unlikely. The more likely nature would be that those who are seated around the person
that's sick would be identified, would be tested and - but the health is the most important
aspect to start with. So as I say, there are well-established arrangements with the state
health departments and we would test that person very quickly just to identify whether
or not it was coronavirus or something else.
SPEERS: Will this be approach going forward. If we don't extend the travel ban to more
countries like we have China and Iran, will it be a case-by-case, plane-by-plane situation?
DUTTON: We’ve got airport liaison officers at most of the major hubs as well. There's
a lot of work done before people get on the plane. We also message out, I think, very
effectively through the airlines, through other stakeholders to make sure that people
aren't going to travel if they realise that they're going to be turned around when they
arrive in Australia and there are many ways in which we can identify either on flights
or before people board and to try to reduce the risk. But we need to recognise know that
this has spread to 61 countries outside of China. So it's a very serious development
and you start to get a compounding effect from there which is...
SPEERS: Which is what we're seeing.
DUTTON: That's right.
SPEERS: Let's turn to some other issues. President Donald Trump has this morning announced the
US has signed a peace deal with the Taliban. There are still some difficult negotiations
to come, but it does mean American and NATO troops, he says, could be out of Afghanistan
within 14 months. What does this mean for the 400 Australian personnel there?
DUTTON: Well, firstly, David, we would welcome any peace agreement. There's been a lot of
effort put in by coalition partners. Australians have fought alongside our allies for many
years in an effort to provide a brighter future for Afghanistan. It's been an incredibly important
effort and if there are troop withdrawals then we'll work that out with the United States.
Obviously the Taliban need to abide with any conditions on such agreement, but well done on the United
States to be able to broker such a deal.
SPEERS: But it means the Australians - the Australians will come out in the next year?
DUTTON: If there's a withdrawal of coalition troops, we'll do that in line with consultations
with the United States, the UK and our 5-Eyes partners.
SPEERS: It's a point at which to reflect on the fact we have been there for nearly two
decades now. We lost some 40 Australian soldiers in this war. When you look back at all of
this, the Taliban now going back into power under this deal, has it been worthwhile?
DUTTON: Well, for us, David, we always mark the loss of any Australian soldier in any
conflict, their families still live with that pain today, but for us there are important
equities in the Middle East. We have done an enormous amount in terms of intelligence-collection
in Afghanistan, in Iraq, elsewhere across Syria, for example, and the collection of
that intelligence has stopped terrorist attacks taking place in the West including in Australia,
in Indonesia and elsewhere. So there are many facets to our involvement in the conflict.
SPEERS: Sure, but if it means the Taliban is back in power, are you comfortable with that?
DUTTON: Well, I'm comfortable if people aren't being slaughtered and attacked and that young
girls can go to school. There's a brighter future for the country.
SPEERS: If they can go to school?
DUTTON: And this will be part of the discussion and as you say we want to make sure that the
Taliban and others abide by the conditions and the intent of the agreement. But we'll
wait for the detail.
SPEERS: The ASIO boss, Mike Burgess, gave an interesting speech this week. He said,
"The number of terrorism leads has doubled since this time last year. It's plateaued
an unacceptably high level." He spoke about the extreme right-wing terror threat being
real and growing. Can I ask you, Minister - do you have any idea why right-wing extremism
is growing?
DUTTON: Well, David, I think if you look at the proliferation now of material on websites,
the availability on the dark web for people to communicate in networks that were never
imaginable even ten years ago, of course, you're going to get this extremist view spread
very rapidly around the world. The advice from ASIO and from other agencies, CIA and
others, indicate that young people can be radicalised in whatever way online within
a couple of weeks. I think that's a part of the cause and as Duncan Lewis, the predecessor
to Mike Burgess, but now Mike Burgess, has pointed out, as I said before, the fight of
ASIO against right-wing extremism has been going on for decades and...
SPEERS: Why is the problem growing now? I take your point about the ability to access
information, but why are people attracted to this more now?
DUTTON: Well, I think people receive the information and they accept the propaganda. I can't tell
you the psychological make-up that would incline somebody to do...
SPEERS: It's important to understand why this is happening surely if you're going to combat it.
DUTTON: Well, people will be attracted to all sorts of causes, cults, and movements.
If you have got that information, if you are reading it, if you're believing it, if you're
watching it on YouTube, you're listening to these sermons, then people will fall for that.
And we need to make sure that people are educated, there's a lot of effort that goes on by ASIO
to talk to community leaders, to leaders of those organisations,
obviously deradicalisation programs.
SPEERS: When it comes to the right-wing stuff, Minister, Australia has not proscribed any
right-wing terror organisation unlike other countries. I know you said you haven't been
called on to do so by ASIO. Do we need to change the way the listing process works?
DUTTON: I don't think we do. I think the listing process has served us well for a long period
of time. It's obviously an arduous process in that it needs to go for consultation to
the states and territories to their first officers and it's signed off by the Prime
Minister as well. But I have not rejected advice from ASIO. If ASIO has recommended
a listing, then a list - I have been criticised for not listing Hezbollah over the course
of the last 12 months or so, but the agencies look at all of this and we don't have a presence
in our country of some of these right-wing groups as well.
SPEERS: The problem is growing according to ASIO.
DUTTON: If the ASIO boss believes that there’s a case for listing, I promise you that organisation
will be listed. We're completely blind to where people are...
SPEERS: Speaking to - you seem to suggest this week that Islamist terrorism is left-wing
terrorism. Can you clarify that? Is that what you're suggesting?
DUTTON: The point I was making - I was completely blind to somebody's religious beliefs.
SPEERS: Sure, but is Islamist terrorism left-wing?
DUTTON: You can put it wherever you like on the spectrum.
SPEERS: I'm asking where you put it.
DUTTON: My - I put it in the same lunacy basket as I do those on the right-wing.
SPEERS: It's not left-wing, is it?
DUTTON: I don't believe we should tolerate people acting outside of the law wherever
they are on the spectrum.
SPEERS: It's not left-wing, is it? Islamist terrorism?
DUTTON: It's an organisation that's on the spectrum, David, and doesn't matter where
they are.
SPEERS: Doesn’t ASIO say it doesn't fit on the left-right continuum?
DUTTON: You can get into the semantics on it.
SPEERS: You are, Minister, that's the point I'm saying. You suggested it's left-wing,
it's not, is it?
DUTTON: The point I would make, wherever people are on the spectrum, if they are terrorists,
if they pose a threat to Australians - I think I demonstrated this in my time in this portfolio...
SPEERS: Sure, but it's important to be accurate in what you're trying to fight here.
DUTTON: Except on the basis they pose a threat to our country. That's the approach I have taken.
SPEERS: The ASIO boss also pointed out there are more foreign spies in Australia today
than there were during the height of the Cold War. Are they mostly from China?
DUTTON: Well, they're not just from China, but they're from Iran, from...
SPEERS: Mostly from China?
DUTTON: And from elsewhere. I'll let the ASIO boss provide more detail if he wants.
SPEERS: Why can't you? You know the answer to this.
DUTTON: Well, if he wants to go into the detail of this, he will.
SPEERS: You're here now, Minister. I'm just asking you as the Minister - are most of these
foreign spies from China?
DUTTON: Well, David, I'm giving you this answer - that is I don't care where people come from.
Again, if they pose a threat to our national interest, to our sovereignty, if they're engaging
in interference in our political system or...
SPEERS: Sure, but it matters where is they come from?
DUTTON: Well, of course it does. And for us if they're posing...
SPEERS: Where are they coming from?
DUTTON: Well, I have just listed some of the countries, but others, and if we find somebody
who is acting against our national interest outside of the law then we act against them.
SPEERS: It seems to suggest the number he's talking about, the current foreign transparency
scheme isn't adequate or isn't working. Do you need to change the register for foreign
spies, foreign agents? Do you need stronger powers in particular the suggestion of detaining
foreign spies?
DUTTON: If ASIO suggests that there is a case to be made, we'd be happy to look at that.
We have introduced and passed 19 tranches of national security laws which have directly
resulted in terrorist attacks being thwarted in criminal syndicates being disrupted. So
if the ASIO boss, or ASIS ...
SPEERS: What about the Parliamentary committee - the joint Parliamentary Committee on Intelligence
and Security. Two years ago it recommended a change here to allow foreign spies to be
detained along with terror suspects for 24 hours of questioning. Two years ago they did
that. Is the Government going to move on that front?
DUTTON: David, the process you're referring to - there was a sunset clause built into
the legislation. So that comes up in September of this year.
SPEERS: And a recommendation to replace it with this new detention power.
DUTTON: Look, we're going through that process with the committee at the moment.
SPEERS: It's a Long process.
DUTTON: Well, it should be because you're talking about significant powers. There needs
to be proper oversight, needs to be judicial oversight in some of the processes as well.
There's a lot to get right and
we'll work through that and we got up until September to do it.
SPEERS: There's a damning story in the News Corp papers this morning about AUSTRAC which
is in your portfolio as well - the financial crimes watchdog. Did AUSTRAC sit on evidence
of potential child sex crimes for more than a year?
DUTTON: No, it didn't. And this hatchet job on Nicole Rose should be seen for what it
is. Nicole has taken AUSTRAC at an unprecedented level of success not only with the banks,
but many of the criminal syndicates that they're now working on with the ACIC and the Australian
Federal Police and their state counterparts as well.
SPEERS: So there's no delay here? No delay...
DUTTON: No, there's not. The personal attacks on Nicole Rose at a time when she's going
after some pretty big fish, I think is pretty outrageous. I can tell you my experience with
Nicole Rose is she's one of the most exceptional public servants that we have in the Commonwealth.
I deal with her on a regular basis. I have the utmost confidence in her and I found her
frankly to be one of the most impressive people in public life that I have met and I think
people should be proud of the work she does.
SPEERS: More specifically on paedophiles using the dark web for child exploitation to watch
streaming of abuse often in the Philippines. There has been a lot of talk about what the
Government might be doing here. Can you clear it up for us - what are you going to do about this?
DUTTON: Well as the Police Commissioner the other day along with the CEO of the ACIC and
AUSTRAC made this case at the Press Club that you would have seen. We have got groups, syndicates
who are operating on the dark web at the moment that we just can't stop. And we wouldn't allow
any suburb or town within our country to be lawless. We wouldn't allow children to be
raped and sexually assaulted within a suburb and the police not able to go in.
SPEERS: What are you going to do?
DUTTON: That's what we got on the dark web. So I think there's a case that is building
for us to look at the way in which the police operate on the dark web, that they can use
frankly the same expectation that the community has in real life online. That is the same
laws should apply in real life online.
SPEERS: Would you give police the powers, the capability, the resources, that the Australian
Signals Directorate has overseas, give the AFP those powers at home?
DUTTON: Well, I think already, David, you're seeing elsewhere the United States, the UK,
where something like that works and I think there is a case for the police, if they can't
get into a syndicate - there was a syndicate operating out of the US called Play Pen which
was deliberately targeting prepubescent children. That's the sort of syndicates we're talking
about at the moment - they're operating with complete impunity on the dark web and if they're
operating these syndicates, the police should be able to stop it. It's an inconvenient topic
to talk about because nobody wants to talk about children being sexually abused but that's
what we're dealing with and I think properly oversighted powers that the police can exercise
judiciously, if it's going to save children from being sexually abused here or in the
Philippines, or elsewhere in the world, I think it's something that should be given proper consideration.
SPEERS: Can I ask you about domestic viol ence. There was some moving speeches in the Parliament
this week for Hannah Clarke and her children killed there in Queensland. But let me read
you the comments of Pauline Hanson. She says, "Don't bastardise all men out there or all
women for that matter because these things happen. A lot of people are driven to do these
acts for one reason or another." Driven to do these acts? Is Senator Hanson an appropriate
person to be chairing the Senate family law inquiry.
DUTTON: I don't agree Senator Hanson’s comments and it's been a long time since I was a police
officer, 20 years, but I can tell you some of the images of domestic violence, women
being assaulted, women screaming at the door as you approached a residence, stay with me
today. I want to make sure we do all we can to keep women and children safe. Senator Hanson
has her views. We live in a democracy.
SPEERS: Why is she chairing this inquiry then, why did the Government put her in that position?
DUTTON: Well, she's again just to make this point - she's entitled to her views. She can
be condemned or praised for her views depending on your perspective. I don't agree with them
but we're in a Parliamentary democracy process and if she wants to make comments she can
justify them and...
SPEERS: I'm asking you to justify why the Government would put her in charge of an inquiry
in this very area?
DUTTON: Because she has a perspective in this area and we're happy to listen to all perspectives.
The Government...
SPEERS: It’s one that’s out of step with your views, though, with many community views?
DUTTON: In relation to the statement that you have just made, I have put very clearly
my position. There would be other statements that she would make because she's had constituents
that she feels very strongly about. She obviously believes that some people have been wronged
and in the circumstance where you talk about all people, all males, all females, all children,
you know, I mean, let's be realistic. She has a perspective to put. We listen to that,
but in the end, the Government will put in place recommendations that we believe will
strengthen the family law system or make a better, safer environment for women and children
and that will be the priority of the Prime Minister and the Government.
SPEERS: Home Affairs Minister Peter Dutton, thanks for joining us.
DUTTON: Thanks, David.