Tony DuShane, Writer/Podcaster/Teacher: Because there's no plot, why would I watch that?
Film Courage: What is plot?
Tony: Great question. Plot is conflict. So
we need the character first I for me I always need the character first sometimes though I do come up
with a with a situation first and plot's kind of a situation but we do have to put the character
in the situation so we put a character in a situation and the character has a goal
and you go great the character has a goal and then the character moves forward to that goal
and we throw obstacles at that character and that's plot how is the character going to
move through those obstacles will they will they make the right or wrong decision
will they learn from that decision that's that's essentially what plot is to me is
throwing obstacles at the character may and then seeing how they get out of them
for better or for worse and then how they move on to the next scene so that's when
that's that's that's when the beauty of creating the plot and essentially
creating the three-act structure that kind of turns into this huge showdown at the end
but we need to know how the character gets in and out of obstacles throughout the whole movie
and then that's when that's that's adding to the plot and it's all pointing to
one direction when we get to that when we get to that showdown so how would you
teach plot right now if if I'm a new student in the class and I don't know what that is
sure like a sort of a reader's digest version of I like to come up with I like to come up with really
lame like the lamest situation like i'll say so let's say your character wants a wants to buy
gum okay great that's you know any cause any any goal as long as the character's totally invested
in the goal makes sense so the character wants to rule all of the world great if the character wants
a stick of gum great but but it needs to mean just as much to that character to get that stick of gum
so let's get them a stick of gum great the store's across the street now as your character watch
walks to get that stick of gum what can you do to make it harder for them to get that stick of gum
and then I throw it to my students and it's just like let's just be absurd let's be totally absurd
what would you do I get a baseball bat and I knock them in the knees great knock them in the knees
beat those beat those kneecaps out but that character still needs that gum and we're gonna
love that character for using his elbows to try to get to that store to get to the gum what can
we do next and so we can create a we're creating plot by just throwing essentially you know rocks
at this character who wants something so bad and it's so that's where there's a lot of fun
I have a lot of fun discussing plot with my students because it's just like let's
come up with the silliest scenarios and then great now when you go to your scene
where the woman wants the wants the man to ask her on a date but she's not sure what he thinks of him
the stakes are just as high as if someone wants a piece of gum or someone wants to
be the ruler of the world now what are the obstacles you're going to put in and then
when they have a character worksheet they know the flaws and the strengths of their characters
then they know how to like bring all of that in heighten it beyond belief and then we we're
gonna watch that scene and be like is he gonna ask her out or not so that's essentially plot to me
okay and then should I be writing this like sidebar thing that no one's going to see that
I'm going to know about the convenience store clerk and that's going to help set up the maybe
the tension in the scene so our protagonist is gonna run in and they're gonna fumble for
change for this gum and there's gonna be something about this clerk that's gonna now add new conflict
maybe that clerk used to be a CEO and they were like go and and and this is a job they got and
they remember this person because that was one of their employees
and now I mean I mean so but but necessarily the or the the audience won't know that I have all
this backstory but there's going to be a tension there yeah and as long as I feel like as long as
the story stays on the protagonist who wants the gum and then this is another this is another
obstacle so they actually make it to the store after all of my all of my students have thrown
in all their you know we're gonna take out his tongue and his teeth he won't be able to chew gum
okay what are we gonna do there and then yeah you add even more attention when we get to the store
we can have we can have another antagonist of sorts blocking the actual getting of the gum or
or that that maybe we maybe the protagonist gets a helper maybe the clerk is a helper in
the situation and then we and because our you know our heroes do need helpers along the way
and then but then we'll lose that helper but it's and that's when we have the victories
and the losses if we give too much losses if we're throwing too much loss at a character then
then we'll lose our audience but we get that character that victory is like oh the gum
great what's next that's what we we need to ask the question what's next and we also need to give
them we need to give them a moment to breathe and go ah we got the gum you know and then
I don't know where to go from there and because that's such a simplistic story but
that's yeah that's the victories and losses and when I work with my students when they do
their beat sheets I try to I'm like note where the victories are nowhere note where your breaths are
because you need to give your character oh all right I got this and but that's the last thing
they got because the next thing's coming up and going to hit them even harder it's like
fix that and then boom next so so do you find a lot of writers maybe they're more intermediate
they're they're not letting it breathe enough they know hey I need conflict and I need it by this
point but now they're they're infusing too much conflict I t's bet I think it's better to have
more conflict than less because it's it's it's a lot of fun to throw the conflict in there and then
pull it out and go that's too much that's too much where yeah and and sometimes people ask it feels
so manufactured and I'm like it is manufactured you know it feels fake it is fake it's it's just
like it this isn't this isn't real life with this go ahead and feel awkward about it not
feeling real because you just keep crafting and crafting it and in the world of and the building
the world of and this is one you know people talk about world building and science fiction movies or
other things there's world building and romantic comedies there's world building in every single
movie so build that world stay in the confines of the world and then yeah and let them run let
the what the characters run right because if you want to go to you know mystic pizza or a pretty
woman or whatever I mean there was world building and all that you have a small new england town
this restaurant you got is it conchita farrell she was like there she ran the restaurant and it's
you know it's kind of a fun atmosphere but it's no nonsense and and that they're waiting
for this food critic to come in that they're all terrified of that's gonna either make or
break the restaurant so you know they're getting ready for the shift they're polishing whatever
and so now we feel like okay I'm in this small town I know that this restaurant means everything
to this owner and and you know they're when the food critic comes in they're all smiles and it's
probably overly you know they're giving too much attention yeah so I'm not even sure where I'm
going with that I think I just explained all of mystic pizzas sorry right one and I still need
to watch it actually I feel bad please I need to watch it but but you said it you said exactly the
thing it's it's the it's everything they want it's their whole their character we don't need
to know that they have these other wants in their lives you know are they sexually satisfied in this
relationship that we're not seeing off screen who cares we need to know that that restaurant critic
coming in is the most important piece of their life sure sure and there might be a little bit of
that in mystic pizza too oh is there oh cool yeah you'll have to start what do you say to writers
who tell you that plot doesn't matter there are writers who say plot doesn't matter there might be
I think well I was thinking what you asked me like think of some movies that meant everything to you
in one of our email exchanges and I was thinking of stranger than paradise the Jim Jarmusch film
and and the reason that meant everything to me is because I saw it when I was a kid
on the PBS affiliate in San Francisco channel 9. KQED yes for some odd reason they showed it over
and over again they said this is only 67 takes and blah blah blah but it made me realize that a
movie is a craft and not just that's when I kind of that's when I got the separation went oh wow
and like a movie like that seems plotless and a lot of it is plotless to an extent or is it I'm
i'm am I thinking of the one where they had they opened with the two Elvis enthusiasts on the train
the gym Germany that's a mystery train oh okay because I love that one too yeah and then they
go in this hotel and okay right now that's a lot more that is a lot more plot this is the one with
John Lurie and where they're just his Hungarian cousin comes to stay with him in Brooklyn and it's
yeah it's like there's plot in there so I t's I like what what film wouldn't have can you
think of a film that doesn't have plot okay I know I'm not supposed to use this reference My
Dinner With Andre does that have plot I haven't seen it you haven't seen it okay well there it
is until I can't use that reference anymore but I think that but I think I know the you know I
know the actors in it and I remember seeing clips of it they do want something that's true and if
they want something do they get it are they are they are they having a conversation where they
where they shift the where they shift the idea in the other person's mind
where the other person has a oh I didn't think of it that way moment
or are they just kind of coming at each other with this is me this is me this is me this is me
so yeah well that's why I haven't seen My Dinner With Andre because there's no plot why would I
watch that apparently it did very well but but I'm just thinking that I'm just thinking of that from
from a long time ago but yeah it's I mean and that's just it's it's hard to come up with an
example of a movie that doesn't really have plot even if it's yeah you know I love I love slow
Scandinavian films I love there's this author t singer that I read his books and they're about
nothing and it just it brings me absolute joy and the plot is like a little bit there's even there's
even youtube channels that show Norwegian trains just going from Oslo to Bergen and i'll watch it
and so it's it might be there's no plot there but there is forward momentum there's no obstacles
but there's forward momentum so maybe that's maybe that's the an example of a reason not to have plot
I you know where yeah I’ll watch something but I think I watch it more for artistic reasons
than I do for like oh my goodness I can't wait till they I can't wait till they get to you know
Stavong or yes no I barely care so it I think I think I don't care but I enjoy if that makes sense
yeah there's great Norwegian or Scandinavian in general youtube channels where they
talk about you know different Christmas you know customs and things like that and they are really
fascinating to watch how they put it together yeah it's very artistic no I could watch dolphins
just go in and out of the water for two hours and i'll be you know the march of the penguins I mean
what a beautiful film there you know if I remember right there is plot to it because they are
going somewhere to I think it's it's all about the reproduction and the likes they
have to take so there are very high stakes in the march of the penguins and it's presented
to us in a you know kind of a lighthearted way but but there's still stakes there yeah I think
I would not be interested in filmmakers who don't who think that there's no reason for plot that
even a photographer has to have a plot you know a photographer is telling a story they're they're
they're trying to frame a they're trying to frame a photo they're they're looking for conflict
they're looking for they're looking for how how to present it and it just may you know then to
one person that just like oh it's a picture of a face but if you talk to the photographer
they'll tell you what the what the tension is and then so that we do need tension I think.