WELCOME BACK EVERYBODY.
MY NEXT GUEST IS A CORRESPONDENT FOR NBC NEWS.
HIS NEW BOOK, "SEPARATED: INSIDE AN AMERICAN TRAGEDY," IS A "NEW
YORK TIMES" BESTSELLER.
PLEASE WELCOME, JACOB SOBOROFF.
JACOB, GOOD TO SEE YOU AGAIN.
>> GOOD TO SEE YOU, STEPHEN.
HERE'S THE BOOK "SEPARATED."
AND IT'S SPECIFICALLY ABOUT THE FAMILY SEPARATION POLICY
INSTITUTED BY THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.
IT'S ONLY BEEN A FEW YEARS SENSE YOU FIRST STARTED REPORTING N
THIS, BUT IT'S DROPPED OUT OF THE NEWS IN A LARGE WAY.
JUST REMIND US ABOUT THIS EXTRAORDINARY-- EXTRAORDINARILY
CRUEL ACT OF POLICY THAT WAS USED AS A DETERRENT AGAINST
PEOPLE.
>> IT WAS AN EVENT THAT UNITED THE COUNTRY.
I'LL NEVER FORGET COVERING IT MYSELF, AND SEEING YOU TALK
ABOUT THIS TO YOUR AUDIENCE.
I MEAN, IT'S SOMETHING THAT GOT PEOPLE OUTRAGED IN A WAY THAT I
HAVEN'T SEEN IN A REPORTER BEFORE.
AND WHEN I SAY, YOU KNOW, I SAW MYSELF, I WAS INSIDE THOSE
FACILITIES.
I WAS INSIDE THE FORMER WALMART, 250,000 SQUARE FEET.
YOU HAD 1,500 BOYS, 10-17 YEARS OLD, LIVING INSIDE FOR 22 HOURS
A DAY.
WENT OUTSIDE FOR RECREATION TWO OR THREE HOURS, DEPENDING ON THE
DAY OF THE WEEK.
THEY WERE WATCHING "MUWANA" ON THE LOADING DOCK.
THEY WERE DOING TAI CHI.
A COUPLE OF DAYS LATER, FATHER'S DAY, 2018, I WENT TO THE
EPICENTER, AND THAT'S WHERE THE KIDS WERE LAYING ON CONKREPT
FLOORS UNDER THE BLANKETS AND SUPERVISED BY, YOU KNOW,
SECURITY CONTRACTORS IN A WATCH TOWER.
AND I COULD NOT BELIEVE WHAT I WAS SEEING WITH MY OWN EYES.
AND THAT'S WHY I WANTED TO DO THE BOOK BECAUSE I DIDN'T
UNDERSTAND.
HOW DID AMERICA DO THIS?
HOW IN OUR NAME WAS THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA DOING THIS TO
THESE CHILDREN?
I THINK IT WAS THE SAME QUESTIONS YOU WERE ASKING AT THE
TIME.
AND I DID THIS FOR MYSELF AND FOR EVERYBODY ELSE, TOO.
>> Stephen: LET'S TALK ABOUT HOW WE GOT THERE.
THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION DECIDED TO USE THIS CRUELTY AS
DETERRENCE, DIDN'T THEY?
>> YEAH, THEY CALLED IT-- THEY CALLED IT, AS SUCH, JOHN KELLY
SAID THAT ON CNN IN MARCH OF 2017.
AND WHAT THEY ENDED UP DOING WAS TORTURING, IN THE WORDS OF
PHYSICIANS FOR HUMAN RIGHTS, WHICH WON A NOBEL PEACE PRIZE,
5500 KIDS.
AND THE AMERICAN ACADEMY OF PEDIATRICS CALLED IT
GOVERNMENT-SANCTIONED CHILD ABUSE AND THEY DID IT ON PURPOSE
AND DID IT TO SCARE PEOPLE FROM COMING TO THIS COUNTRY.
>> Stephen: IS THIS POLICY OVER?
>> NO, NO, IT'S NOT.
THE A.C.OLYMPIC UMP SAYS SINCE THE SO-CALLED END OF THE POLICY,
THAT OVER 1,000 KIDS HAD BEEN SEPARATED.
AND I DON'T THINK TRUMP WANTED THIS TO END.
IN FACT, I REPORT IN THE BOOK AS MUCH WHEN HE WAS GOING TO VISIT
TORNADO VICTIMS, HE WHISPERED TO SD SAID WE HAVE TO WEEP DOING
IT.
AND MELANIA SAID NO, NO.
AND HE SAID, "WE'LL SEE AM.
CAN HE BRING IT BACK WORSE THAN IT WAS BEFORE?
I THINK THE ANSWER IS YES.
>> Stephen: THAT IS' CHILLING REMINDER OF WHAT THE STAKES OF
THIS ELECTION ARE, IN SOME SMALL WAY DONALD TRUMP MIGHT BE
FETTERED BY TRYING TO REACH OUT TO VOTERS RIGHT NOW.
BUT IF HE'S REELECTED, HE HAS NO CONSTRAINTS OVER ANY ACT OF
CRUELTY HE WANTS TO INFLICT ON THESE PEOPLE.
AND THE LASTING DAMAGE YOU TALK ABOUT IN HERE IS EXTRAORDINARY.
THERE ARE STILL CHILDREN WHO HAVEN'T BEEN REUNITED WITH THEIR
PARENTS, CORRECT?
IT'S ALMOST UNBELIEVABLE TO THINK ABOUT.
LITERALLY, ON THE GROUND, IN CENTRAL AMERICA, ARE NOT-- THE
GOVERNMENT DOESN'T WANT TO DO IT.
THE GOVERNMENT TURNED OVER PHONE NUMBERS AND ADDRESSES AND YOU
HAVE NONPROFITS GOING AROUND ELFSALVADOR, AND THEY BASICALLY
HAVE TO STOP IT BECAUSE OF COVID, LOOKING FOR KID.
THERE IS AN ENTIRE ADDITIONAL GROUP THAT WE STILL DON'T KNOW
WHO THEY ARE OR WHERE THEY ARE OR IF THEY HAVE BEEN REUNITED
YET.
>> Stephen: DO YOU HAVE ANY SENSE OF HOW MANY KID IT IS?
>> OVER 1,000.
THAT GROUP IS OVER 1,000 CHILDREN.
AND THAT'S WHY THEY'RE ON THE GROUND.
BECAUSE, LITERALLY, THEY DID THIS WITHOUT A PLAN.
THEY DIDN'T HAVE A PLAN TO REUNITE.
IN FACT, THERE WERE PEOPLE WHO HAD PLANS.
I MEAN, AND I CALL THEM HEROES, CIVIL SERVANTS WHO PUSHED BACK
ON THE POLICY, TRIED TO STOP THEM FROM DOING, THIS BECAUSE
THEY KNEW THIS WAS GOING TO BE THE RESULT.
ULTIMATELY, THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION PUSHED FORWARD
WITH THIS ANYWAY, AND IT WAS THE DISASTER THESE FOLKS PREDICTED.
>> Stephen: IS IT TRUE THAT THERE WAS NO THERE IS PLACE TO
KEEP TRACK OF THE KIDS, PARTLY BECAUSE THEY STARTED DOING IT
BEFORE THE POLICY WAS ANNOUNCED?
>> YEAH.
>> Stephen, THEREFORE, THEY COULDN'T HAVE A RECORD OF IT?
>> YES.
BY THE WAY, IT GOES BACK TO THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION, WHEN THIS
WAS HAPPENING IN VERY LIMITED CIRCUMSTANCES FOR THE SAFETY OF
THE KIDS.
THERE WAS A GUY, JIM DELA CRUZ, KEEPING TRACK ON AN INFORMAL
SPREADSHEET.
HE SAID IF WE'RE GOING TO SEPARATE THE BEST WAY TO REUNITE
IS NOT SEPARATE AT ALL.
THE SYSTEMS AREN'T TALKING TO EACH OTHER.
WHEN THEY GOT TO THE POINT, THE LIST THIS GUY WAS KEEPING,
LEAKED TO "THE NEW YORK TIMES," SCOTT LLOYD, THE TRUMP-APPOINTED
HEAD OF THE REFUGEE AGENCY OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, HIS
FIRST INSTINCT WAS TO GET RID OF THAT LIST, AND HE TOLD
SUBORDINATES HE WANTED TO GET RID OF THE LIST.
YOU CAN READ ABOUT THE ENCOUNTER.
AND BECAUSE OF THE HEROES THAT CARED ABOUT THE KIDS OVER TRUMP
POLICIES, THEY REFUSED TO DO IT.
TO ME THAT WAS SUCH A CRITICAL POINT THAT COULD HAVE BEEN FAR
WORSE, THIS CRITICAL LINJAGE BETWEEN PARENTS AND KIDS WOULD
HAVE BEEN DESTROYED AND WHO KNOWS WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED
TO THOSE 700.
PARENTS WERE DEPORTED WITHOUT THEIR KIDS WERE DEPORTED.
>> Stephen: CHILDREN WERE EXPELLED FROM THE U.S. BECAUSE
OF THE PANDEMIC.
IS TRUMP NOW USING COVID AS A COVER TO FURTHER HIS IMMIGRATION
AGENDA?
>> BINGO, EXACTLY.
AND WHAT HE'S WANT UPONNED TO DO, STEPHEN, ALL ALONG.
DURING FAMILY SEPARATIONS, INCLUDING THE WOMAN WHO IS
STEPHEN MILLER'S WIFE, TOLD ME-- SHE WAS A SPOKESPERSON FOR
D.H.S.-- THE GOAL WAS TO KICK KIDS OUT OF THE COUNTRY AS SOON
AS THEY GOT HERE, NO MATTER WHERE THEY CAME FROM, AND HOLD
FAMILIES IN ICE PRISONS INDEFINITELY, AND NOW USING
COVID AS THE EXCUSE, THEY LOCKED UP FAMILIES AND THEY'RE NOT
LETTING THEM OUT, DESPITE JUDGES SAYING LETTING THEM OUT BECAUSE
OF COVID.
AND OVER 800 CHILDREN HAVE BEEN EXPELLED IMMEDIATELY BECAUSE OF
PUBLIC HEALTH.
THERE HAS BEEN REPORTING DONE THAT SHOWS KIDS DEPORTED DON'T
HAVE COVID.
THEY'RE USING COVID AS THIS EXCUSE FOR THE RESTRICTED IMAGE
DREAMS THEY'VE HAD ALL ALONG AND THEY WANTED FAMILY SEPARATIONS
BASICALLY TO MAKE HAPPEN.
>> Stephen: JACOB, WE HAVE TO TAKE A QUICK BREAK.
STICK AROUND, EVERYBODY, WE'LL BE BACK WITH MORE JACOB
SOBOROFF.