Ian Manuel, welcome to The Daily Social Distancing Show.
(laughs): The Daily Social Distancing Show.
Thank you for having me, Trevor.
Um, man, you-you have lived a life
that I wouldn't wish on anybody.
Um, you've written a book about it.
And I'm not gonna lie,
your-your story has all of the, um...
the most surprising conclusions,
because you were 14 years old,
and you got sentenced to life.
That was it.
What was really fascinating in the story
is how the judge explicitly says,
"Hey, man, there's no second chances
even if you're 14 years old." You know?
When that judge said, "You're sentenced to life,"
did you know what that actually meant, or...?
Like, how long did it take to sink in?
Uh, in my... I didn't recognize that "life" meant "life"
until I was nearly in my 20s or 30s.
Uh, as a child,
you don't recognize what "life without parole" means.
And that was based on a Florida law
that says a child of any age
indicted for a life or death felony
shall be treated in every respect
as if he were an adult.
And that law is still on the books,
so children can still be subjected to this
no matter if they're eight, nine or ten.
It felt horrible, man.
No human being should be treated like that,
especially a child.
You-you weren't just sentenced to life with no parole.
You, at some point,
were-were sent to solitary confinement,
and you spent, what,
over a decade in solitary confinement?
Uh, actually, I spent 18 consecutive years,
from the time, uh, George H.W. Bush was president
to when Barack Obama
was on his, uh, second year of his first term,
so from 1992 to 2010.
If it wasn't for me diving
within the depths of my imagination
and-and learning how to write poetry,
I would've... I would've went crazy in there.
I really need to understand this,
like, on a human level.
You know, everyone-- every therapist,
every researcher, every scientist--
has said one of the key things human beings need to exist
is human connection.
For those who really don't understand solitary confinement,
can you explain that?
What is it like existing in a box
for 18 years?
It's about the size of a walk-in elevator
or a freight elevator. There's a steel bunk.
There's a-a door.
It's about five or six steps from the wall to the...
to the-the front door with a size nine and a half shoe.
And it's just... And it's not like
they put me in that cell and left me there, right?
Uh, I was tortured.
I was gassed with chemical agents.
I was beaten.
I mean, if what happened to George Floyd
happened in broad daylight,
imagine what's happening behind closed prison walls
when there's no one to videotape it.
And what makes your story interesting
is one of the advocates who said,
"We need to let this man out of prison.
He cannot spend his entire life behind bars,"
was the woman who you shot in the face,
Debbie Baigrie, who you are now friends with.
And she said, "Hey, man, if I can forgive this person
"and if I can move forward with them,
the American legal system needs to do the same thing."
Talk to me about how you made contact with her,
why that journey began,
and-and what that did for both of you as human beings.
I was going through my paperwork,
and I see Debbie's phone number and address
in my... in the police report.
So, I reached out to her, and I called her.
And I remember the first thing I said was,
"Debbie, I'd like to wish you and your family
"a merry Christmas and to apologize
for shooting you in the face."
Then she asked me a question
that no 14-year-old should ever have to answer.
She said, "Ian, why did you shoot me?"
And I just remember saying it was a mistake.
It all happened so fast.
And I asked her could I... could I call back.
And I called back, and... and-and I just asked...
I don't remember much about that second conversation
except I asked her could I write her.
And she said yes,
and that's how our correspondence started.
And then that led to Bryan Stevenson
s-sending me a letter and taking my case
and appealing it to the U.S. Supreme Court
to overturn my life sentences.
If you were appealing to people
who would in no way, shape or form
be on the side of anybody who has committed a crime,
how would you explain to them
why they should consider not having,
you know, a life sentence,
especially for a minor
who the courts or the justice system
considers an adult?
Yeah, I would just say that as children,
our brains are still developing.
And I am nowhere near the person I was
at 13, at 14, at 15.
I evolved.
We as human beings, we begin to evolve,
and we become different people.
So to at a... to say... to say to a child
that you will never change is-is scientifically untrue.
It's proven through science that we develop and we grow.
So you should not eradicate,
'cause that's what the judge sought to do.
He sought to eradicate me from Earth.
And I just feel like we as humans
deserve a second chance at life.
What do you think it is about poetry
that-that saved your brain? Like, like...
You know, because you talk about it with so much passion.
You go like, "This is the only thing
that-that kept me compos mentis."
What is it about the poetry that-that helps you cope?
Well, I'll give you an example
by reciting one of my poems, "My Time Will Come."
It says, "I promise you,
"the brunt of my oppression has a purpose,
"and this same person that you persecute
"will one day be worshipped.
"Though I stand before you bare-chested and shirtless
"with my soul and emotions naked,
"just wanting to be nurtured,
"yeah, despite the desperation,
"desertion and hurting,
"my time gon' come.
"Though I compose this poem not knowing
"if I'll ever be able to perform it in an auditorium,
"I do it with the faith of a poet
"that believes he was born to do it.
"Like an acorn caught up in a storm,
"flung from the branch where it was born,
"you can only hold me back for so long.
"My time gon' come.
"Despite the difficulties and disappointments,
"my determination remains undaunted.
"Though the waters of my tomorrows
"are deep and uncharted,
"the buoyance of my character
"will float, unwavering, towards them,
"like a song written yet unrecorded.
"My time gon' come.
"Though you wrap me in chains
"and spray me with chemical flames
"and did all of the things you did to add to my pain,
"my circumstances will change.
"I believe this with the depths of my being
"that as long as this world continues to spin,
"it cannot end
"until it's been enjoyed by Ian.
"Remember this day,
"because things won't always be this way.
"My time gon' come. My time gon' come.
"Against all conceivable odds,
my time gon' come."
Thank you.
Man. Ah.
Your story isn't easy, Ian. It's complicated.
The issue isn't easy. It's complicated.
Um...
-Yeah. -But I think one thing I appreciate about your book
and your conversation is...
that we're dealing with human beings.
You're a human being.
The person you shot was a human being.
The people who are incarcerated every day are human beings,
and we hope that they'll become human beings
when they come out, but we don't treat them
like human beings when they're locked up, so...
Thank you for the time, Ian. Thank you for joining us,
and, um, best of luck, brother. I appreciate you, man.
Thank you, Trevor.