In a historic first
former president of the United States
and a current
presidential candidate
on top of that announced his own
federal indictment.
Joining us now
for their take on this monumental day
in the history
of this great republic,
former Watergate special prosecutor
Richard Ben-Veniste
and legendary Watergate journalist
Bob Woodward.
Bob,
you have interviewed the former
president extensively in 2019.
He told you
about a nuclear weapons system
where he claimed to this.
Let's take a listen from your interview
I have built a weapon system
that nobody has ever
had in this country before.
We have stuff
that you haven't
even seen or heard about.
We have stuff that Putin
and she have never heard about before.
I mean, that's
I mean, that's nuts in itself.
But now we know he's been charged with
with retaining
these classified documents.
About U.S. nuclear capabilities.
And who knows again
who got access to them?
Who knows who he told about them.
So this must not actually be surprising
to you.
No, no.
This indictment and the circumstances
are a total reflection
of his personality.
I really think he believes
democracy is enemy territory
because it's about other people.
And he likes everything to be about him.
And I think one of the offshoots of
this is this is a test
and a grave crisis.
For the Republican Party.
How is the Republican Party
going to deal with this?
We all know lots of Republicans,
many are still law and order Republicans.
And I think they're going to look at this
and they're going to say, wait a minute,
And this could begin that snowball
going down the mountain
because it's
so factual, it's so potent And I thought
Jack Smith, what he did today
when he praised the FBI was so important.
So the Republicans
are going
to have to go back to Barry Goldwater,
who 50 years ago went to Nixon
and said too many lies, too many crimes.
And Nixon
asked him in a private Oval Office
meeting with the
Republican leaders in the House
and the Senate.
Well, I know I'm going to be impeached.
How will I do in a Senate trial?
Now we need 34 votes to stay in office.
And Goldwater looked at him and said, Mr.
President, and I've counted
and you have five votes.
And one of them is not my right.
And you don't have mine.
Yeah. It's such a great story.
Richard,
I want to get your take on something
historian Doug Brinkley said today.
Let's roll that tape.
I've always
thought Ford
was right to heal the country
pardoning Nixon.
But in recent years,
I realize it was probably a mistake
for the reason
that it encourages
the arrogance of President Trump,
of this
feeling that he's above the law,
that the Constitution doesn't matter,
that you can have an authoritarian
bent to do anything
you want in the United States.
Do you agree?
I think the long the long view picture
of what he's saying is that
if actually there had been
a trial of Richard Nixon
and maybe he had gone to the prison
as many of his coconspirators did,
then maybe this wouldn't have happened.
But at least
if the timing was different
on the pardon,
if President Ford had waited
until we brought charges
and then Nixon could address
the charges,
either by accepting a pardon or not,
at least the charges would
be out there and it would be
something the public could see.
And I agree that this indictment
really is a reflection of the
former president's
arrogance, his disdain
for the rule of law.
Which is so repugnant
to people who have worked
in law enforcement, who have worked
for the Constitution
bipartisanly over the years
to see this kind of complete disregard
for the rule of law by the president in
in treating documents which involved
the national security
of the United States in this cavalier,
offhanded and totally disrespectful way.
I don't see
how members of his political party
can accept this as a leader of the party.
So, Bob, you were talking about
you invoked Goldwater,
who obviously had been the party,
the Republican Party's
nominee for president in 64.
So he was the conservative
standard bearer
going to Nixon talking to Nixon.
And I'm just wondering,
I mean, the the modern incarnation of
that would be Mitt Romney,
very conservative but Donald Trump
doesn't care
what Mitt Romney thinks is
he wouldn't let him in. Right.
Is there a I mean and to be clear,
he should Mitt Romney is a wise man.
And very conservative.
Is there a Goldwater of today
that that not just Donald Trump,
but Kevin McCarthy would listen to?
Well, we're going to have to find him
or the Republican Party
is going to have to have come to Jesus
meeting with itself and say,
what are we missing?
Leadership direction, moral definition,
which has to be
the center of any political party.
If I may say, I think this situation
is a test for Biden and the Democrats.
Also, I think it's really important.
Biden is staying away from this and
so forth. But
go back 50 years.
The night
Nixon announced he was
resigning in The Washington Post
newsroom, Ben Bradlee,
the editor
was running around saying, don't gloat,
no gloating, essential.
And I was with Ben.
We were going down
to get something to eat at The Washington
Post cafeteria, which was just not much.
But it was late at night and the elevator
opened and out stepped.
A prominent member of the Kennedy family
and said, Ben, I came here to celebrate.
And Ben almost tackled him, pushing him
back in the elevator and said, no,
no celebration, no gloating.
And it's very important
that the Democrats
and those of us in our business
not get in in a celebration mode.
Yeah. 1974. Kennedy in Washington.
I think I could figure out who that was.
Maybe it was Sargent Shriver.
It was Sargent Shriver.
He thought it was right.
The Senator Ted Kennedy.
Do you agree?
And, you know,
you brought the Watergate case.
And do you think the Republican Party of
the seventies was different
from the Republican Party
today in terms of all that we know
about Nixon
and there was a lot that he did that was
wrong.
And Mean-Spirited and unconstitutional.
I believe that if he had survived
Watergate wounded but survived,
he was not
an existing threat to our democracy.
I don't believe the same thing
about Donald Trump.
And I think this is an important step
for people to consider
how he regarded our national security
in the way he treated these documents.
And the next thing to come is January six
with which was a head on assault against
our democracy.
Two investigations
coming to the fore on that,
including one from Jack Smith.
And if I may.
But 50 years ago,
if somebody had said, do you
do you think Richard Nixon is
an existential threat to democracy,
you would have said yes.
No, I wouldn't.
You would not have
I wouldn't have said
an existential threat, because we could.
That's too big a word.
We survive And I'm using
an existential
I'm using a big word
when it comes to Donald Trump.
Okay. Fair enough. Fair enough.
To legend some
of the era and end of today as well.
Richard Ben-Veniste
and Bob Woodward, thanks so much
for being here.
Really appreciate it.
Good to see you, sir.