Hi Rowan thanks for joining me.
Shall we take a walk, a stroll around the lake.
So how are you today?
Good, I am good thank you good, good. Yes, I'm good.
Thank you. So well, just a bit about me.
So I'm Craig, pronouns are he/him, I'm
the co-chair of the LGBTQIA+ Stuff network is my volunteering role
at the university so my salary role is something completely different. So
yeah so yeah.
Tell me a bit about yourself
Rowan, how you identify and yeah your experience within
because you are already at the university aren’t you now. Yes. Yeah.
So tell me a bit about yourself. My first year at university.
Now my pronouns, are they/it so
either or no preference on whichever’s used.
Yep, and we’ll go into pronouns in abit.
I'm from quite a little town so it's nice in in a city.
Ok Having more to do than back at home, it’s weird that shops are open
alot later is one of the weirdest things I've had to get used to.
But it's been really good meeting.
New people, oh good.
And are you finding it's more diverse or is it or.
It's definitely more diverse differently accepting or.
The town I'm from is quite conservative.
So It's nice being a lot more open.
There's so many different types of people.
here, it's really good. Yeah. Im enjoying it.
I mean, with in terms of like the LGBTQ+ community,
everyone that I've met and sort of come out to so far has been lovely.
Yeah.
And in doing so, you actually got quite a lot of people also coming out to you
the other way around.
To but I've not had anything negative.
And with that
has it been a surprise because so far as a camp man I'm quite effeminate.
People go, Oh, he's gay.
So yeah.
So is in a visual sense of, so you are, how you identify so is A-gender is that?
Yeah, okay. or non-binary. Okay.
I mean, do you get a different approach of the way
you look because you've got long hair, you know, kind of, yeah.
Feminine or, alot of people do assume that because I present more femininely
that I am just like she/her Okay.
So yes, it's that kind of thing.
Does that make it different or easier or is that changed every time?
It makes it a little bit more difficult Because people do you just assume, yeah,
from the get go how you identify, yeah,
having to actually make that step to come out to people.
It's like if you don't do it the first time you meet
them, it's been a little bit awkward doing it further on.
Yeah, but it sort of just has to happen, but yeah, it doesn't bother me too much.
I know some people.
It does bother a lot, but it's never something that's upset me.
Yeah. Okay. So you're obviously quite
confident of who you are.
And yeah, I'm aware that I present more femininely and I know that
because I'm non-binary, I don't.
Owe, people androgyny.
Yeah.
Just by identifying, I suppose in an androgynous way.
Yeah. But yeah.
So I am fairly confident in who I am Oh that's good and have you always.
Have you always been like that as a child or growing up or is it been?
I mean I was a labelled as a tomboy, as a kid.
So it's always been I've never felt that I have to be a certain way to fit in.
Yeah. Yeah.
Everyone's been really accepting that I have come out to so far, Yeah.
Not had any issues.
With the pronoun it/they.
I mean have you always gone by use it or has it changed over your
the course of your life so far, it’s definitely changed.
I was non-binary so just using they/them for
a little over a year
now, I suppose I think that's about right.
And then so what was it?
Where did it come from?
Because I mean, yeah.
Over the summer I met someone who uses
just it pronouns And then since talking to them
about their experiences and everything going on
with using that as a pronoun,
it's sort of I think it stuck in my mind without me actually realizing.
Yeah.
And then more recently I thought, why not try it?
Yeah, see what it goes like and.
How does it get perceived when you, when you introduce your pronouns?
And um, there's a lot of, I think people don't
really want to bring it up because it's a neopronoun and lesser known
people don't want to ask questions in case it comes across as the wrong way.
Yeah.
Um, which really I wish people would ask more questions because it's never.
It's the fear of getting it wrong.
It's the fear of getting it wrong that people do
tend to just stick to using they/them because it's.
That's already in your mind.
Yeah, that's easier to use. Uh, yeah.
But people don't want to ask questions
in case they're going to ask the wrong sort of questions, I think.
Um, but I do wish people would just ask questions
because every time I have a conversation like this, it's eye opening to me as well.
And it's important to other people to just learn how to
use those pronouns.
Yeah. And people's experiences, I guess.
Because it's always that thing of I mean, we're all, you know,
our community is changing.
I think it's that willingness to say, actually, I might make a mistake.
I’ll apologize but I want to learn and fix. Yes.
And it's those conversations.
And I think some people, they get to a point where they go,
well, it makes no sense to me. I'm not going to use them.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Does I get why people find it a bit objectifying almost?
Yeah.
But that's kind of the part of it that I like about it
it is still quite new to me.
Yeah.
It's not something that I've used a lot, so I am still getting used to other people
referring to me.
by it
but every time someone does, you got like a little bit of a rush of like,
okay, feels really nice. Oh, okay.
There are a couple of friends that
you know, like assigned female at birth and a now male.
Yeah.
Um, they've dealt with more issues because it was during high school
that they were making those transitions,
I feel like I escaped it because it was later on that
I've then changed how I identify.
So it's been easier because I was at college
and then university
to actually make that change because people tend to get a lot more acceptance.
Yeah, but certainly people's high school experiences haven't been the best
from what I've heard. Yeah.
Now I know it's hard that I've never really had to
worry personally about
making those changes.
It's always been really easy to come out.
And it felt like natural progression.
Yeah. Oh, I know. That will always be accepted.
Well, the younger generation are the ones that are really sort of adapting
and taking on these changes and embracing everything.
So it's kind of like really it's just that whole bullying sort of mechanism
of that, that school system is just there.
Yeah, definitely.
I haven’t come out to my family Okay, right. Yeah.
And how does that feel is that.
It's not too bad because we're not sort of a family that refer to each other a lot.
I suppose that sounds a bit strange, but we're not people who use pronouns
a lot as it is anyway, so it's not too bad.
My youngest sibling was the one
who tried to come out to my family first and it didn't go so well.
So I've just held back.
I felt since I'm at uni it doesn't really matter anyway,
so I'm not around them all the time.
I know I do need to,
but now is not the time for this case and it'll happen at some point.
Like I said, my group was very queer as it was anyway.
So when I came out to them they were sort of like, Yeah, we kind of already knew.
So it wasn't it wasn't difficult.
What were you
did you want a bit of like, oh, well, I wanted abit of a reaction from you.
Yeah. Yeah.
I would have liked a lot of reaction actually. No.
So that's always been fine.
I don't, know I don't have to stress about. Yeah.
Any sort of awakenings I'll have in the future or whatever
I don't have to worry about so they will always be accepted.
One of my friends from back home has actually come to uni here as well with me
and she
knows me already by the pronouns I've been using.
Um, so the friends that I've met through her, she has just told them.
And that is actually it feels good to not have to
do that first.
Obviously, if you were meeting someone who looks feminine,
a lot of people would just assume.
Yeah. that that's how you identify.
It’s that visual bias. It’s that visual bias, yeah.
Oh, they must be this type of person, looks like this.
So it's nice to not have to explain it myself.
Yeah.
Sometimes it has felt good that that that was done for me.
But then a lot of my friends I've met through this course
and things like that and it's, I've come out myself and it's
been fine as well, but it is, yeah, it definitely is really nice when you have
someone who already knows how you identify and they connect other people for you.
It is a nice feeling
having someone on your side to just make it a little bit easier.
Within like the staff within the university.
How's that?
How is that being perceived?
If you’ve had to give your pronouns or yeah.
I haven't had to in person yet, but it is on my email.
When I put my name, I put pronouns after it so
but I have not had any issues with that, So far.
But again,
people haven't really been referring to me yet, so I've not had. Yeah,
but if I needed to have that conversation, I would that would be absolutely fine.
I don't get the impression that anyone would have
anything other than a good reaction.
Yeah, it took me a lot longer to come out as using it pronouns than it did
using they/them.
Yeah, I did it a lot more gradually.
Went out the second time around,
I think.
Yeah, I assumed that there would be a lot more negative like tentativeness.
off other people from it.
And I've been pleasantly surprised There hasn’t been.
Thats great I mean I'm yeah, I'm just really thrilled at that.
It's like my own sort of
perception of it is just been like completely yeah.
Oh there we go that's that, i don’t need to worry about this anymore.
I thought it would be a lot more difficult.
Having more neutral pronouns
than obviously people get a bit stressed about what sort of terms
they meant to use, referring to you so like is pretty okay?
Or do you prefer handsome things like that?
Personally, it doesn't bother me very much.
I do prefer more neutral ones. Yes,
but then they're not always on your mind, so it doesn't bother me.
Um. There are certain ones that I.
There are,
there are certain words I don't like, I suppose certain gendered words.
Like I really don't like the word daughter that just doesn't sit right with me.
But then child still feels a bit weird because I'm an adult.
Yeah. Yeah.
So it's about finding words that feel like they fit better.
I think that's probably like a second conversation that this is
why it's important that people ask why you use certain pronouns and Further
it on with what terms do you like me using and things like that?
Yeah, it is nice when people do, you know, admit a mistake and go,
I'm sorry and then, you know, correct it quite effortlessly without a big drama.
I'm like, Oh my god Iv’e said the wrong pronoun Yeah.
Um, yes, it's quite nice.
It's just like, I'm sorry and move on from it.
But a lot of people, I think, yeah, there's a fear with, with,
with getting it wrong, but not learning about it or asking the question.
And I know when I was well, when I used to come out
as gay people go, Oh, so you're gay, so do you like this?
Do you do this?
And then you’d be like oh god here we go, so everyone goes off the stereotype.
Do you ever get any sort of stereotypical sort of
backlash in that sense where you feel like you're like the, oh, god.
Oh, okay.
I do get a lot of maybe nothing being said but confused looks.
Because like I said, I don't look androgynous.
I do present in quite a feminine way. Yeah.
People sort of trying to put the two together that I can still
look feminine and use different pronouns, but there's nothing.
Yeah.
Sort of, there aren't as many stereotypes around it I don't think.
Yeah.
But I did always used to like it when you saw people who
identified one way but dressed a completely different way,
like, I suppose Labrinth with David Bowie in is one of my favourite yeah, yeah.
And I think there possibly was something there that in my mind,
I liked that film as much as I did because he presents
in such a different way to who, who he was and then at different times as well.
Yeah,
I don't think there really are
there's not that much non-binary representation in the media.
There is a lot but Not as much as there is just general
like the community and everything. Yeah.
And you feel that needs to change.
Is that the or is that on the right track in terms of representation.
Is on the right track.
I know that other people it is really important
to have those people there and it is important
like when you watch a TV show and things like that
and someone does come up who is non-binary or A-gender
and there represented the correct way. Not the stereotypical. Yeah.
Rather than just the stereotype.
And that does feel really nice when you watch it.
there probably isn't enough of that at the minute.
Are you ready? Smile everyone.
Because I do present femininely.
I am just quite used to.
I sort of assume that people are just going to use feminine.
Yeah. Terms with me and pronouns.
Um, so it doesn't bother me too much because I know that
part of the reason people do that is because of how I present.
Yeah.
Um, and I am happy presenting femininely.
So it's not too much of an issue, it's just when it is very repetitive.
We need to educate everybody really when it comes to the University, works
at the university.
It’s just nice
when people don't assume straight away with gender and things like, yeah,
so if I meet someone for the first time, I automatically refer to them as they.
Yeah.
Just so that I know I'm not getting it wrong.
Yeah.
Until someone then corrects me.
That's what I tend to go for.
And I think it would be a lot better if everyone did do that.
Yeah. Whether that is is easy to assume.
It's until you meet someone who looks androgynous
that then people do use they because they don't want to get it wrong.
Either way, they're still not thinking non-binary.
They're still thinking, is it a girl or a boy?
Yeah.
But they've gone for the middle ground because they can't tell.
Yeah.
And it would just be nice if people did that across the board.
It's a step in the right direction.
Yeah, but society just puts, puts us all into these boxes of like,
oh, gay men do this.
And it's like, yeah, you know, I'll do some D.I.Y at home
and I've got a power tool out and they’ll go oh you’re butch aren’t you
like, Well, actually, yes, I can be.
So yeah, but it's all that is We do it and we do it in our own community now.
And I think possibly with my friends,
we do it quite, quite jovial because we know we can with each other.
And it's taking those, you know, taking those words like Queer
I, you know, I love that we've taken that word back.
So do you ever go by queer? Yeah queer is a term that i tend to use
Yes. Just because
I'd like a label there, but I don't want to give myself something more specific.
Yeah, yeah. Is it a great kind of So It's nice and vague.
I like the vagueness of it.
It certainly feels really nice when there is a gender neutral bathroom.
So like the ones in the student union building.
It's nice. Yeah.
To go in there and not have to decide where.
Yeah.
Back at college, I was leader of the LGBTQ+ Alliance.
Oh, we had going on and I managed to get them to change
the disabled bathrooms to just be labeled as accessible instead.
yeah.
So they did become more of a like a safe space to go.
I did ask about whether we could have
gender neutral bathrooms, but they didn't have the budget.
Yeah, which I understand,
but it felt really nice to be able to do something like that.
Like it's a really small change that's just
the sign being changed on the door But these small things are really. Really.
integral to a bigger picture. Yeah, definitely.
And it's that thing of you can neutralize it and across, you know,
all campuses and all buildings, it just it's it's a step forward, definitely.
No it does just feel nice to not have to have that on your mind when you just
you just want to go to the toilet,
I don’t want to have to be thinking which bathroom should I be using yeah.
I quite like the fact that I have the power to make a change.
Yeah.
And I suppose
that's probably part of what my degree, the fact that I like my degree is as well.
that I have to do something to make a change.
I am certainly one of those people who likes a bit of a challenge to
to actually change it.
And the idea that I could make an influence.
Then easier for other people who identify the same way I do in the future.
The fact that I could
make the world a better place for them, that's a really empowering feeling.
I suppose, I sort of the same thing with the it pronouns that I did
with the initial change to they as well.
When I first did that, I started being she/they first
and then I went they\she and then when they/them.
So I proper like transitioned myself into It.
And do you not feel like going like what we do
with the community and going just throw them all in, LGBTQIA+.
Yeah.
There is sort of a temptation
to just go by everything yeah because it's easier.
No, but that felt right. Yeah.
As soon as I made that switch
that that was definitely the right choice to have done.
I think in a way I possibly am a little bit gender fluid
and that it's always just going to keep changing
because it does, It depends on my mood sometimes I'll
have a day where I'm a bit like, No, actually I could use she her right now.
And it does really just depend on the day of the week.
Yeah. Yeah.
No, it felt really good to then move across to it
because there is sort of
when you change your pronouns, a little bit of guilt there being like,
am I just doing this because my friends have done it or because it's cool?
Yeah,
but you realize that when you settle into it and
when you get that little rush, like I said before, people use the right pronouns.
That is definitely the right decision to have made.
Oh, that's good, that's good.
That is so affirming and so it just feels good.
Positive reinforcement from the feeling.
Yeah, that's brilliant.
No if there was something that anyone outside of the community or anyone
just entering the community could do,
um, definitely ask more questions.
Yeah. It's a nice conversation to have.
People are
scared to have that conversation because they don't want to say the wrong things,
but it benefits them because they're learning more about
the community as a whole and how to accept it.
And it benefits the person you're talking to as well.
Yeah, definitely.
Because it allows you to open up, it's nice to be asked those sorts of questions.
It justifies it all doesn’t it Yeah. Yeah.
So don't be scared.
Is probably the most.
Yeah. The most. Important.
Be open and willing to learn about this ever changing world.
Yeah. You know.
And even if you don't understand, just still having that
conversation to be on the same page as that person.
and it's okay to say you don't understand.
Yeah absolutely it’s okay to say you don't understand.
Well, thank you very much for your time today, and embracing the cold.
Hope the coffee’s been good.
I just want to hug you for being so brave, and just
so lovely for being yourself and sharing your experience with me and just being.
Yeah, let me, yeah, allow me to ask the questions
and yeah.