Judy: Even if the proposed
framework Lisa just described is
signed into law, the U.S. Will
still struggle with far too many
mass shootings.
Researchers are trying to better
understand what's behind these
shootings.
William brangham picks up on
that part of the story.
William: After mass shootings
like those in Buffalo, you
validate, Tulsa, and elsewhere,
there are so many questions
about the perpetrators, what was
their motive?
How did they obtain the gun?
Were there warning signs?
Could something have been done
to ever these massacres?
Two professors in Minnesota,
Julian Peterson and James
densely, set out years ago to
answer some of those questions
with the hope of ultimately
preventing the next tragedy.
I spoke with them both earlier.
Thank you both so much for being
here.
Jillian, your research has
focused on the characteristics
that are shared by many of these
mass shooters.
And some of the striking
commonalities between them.
Can you explain about what you
found?
Jillian: Sure.
We studied the light histories
of 180 perpetrators who killed
four or more people in a public
setting.
We build a database using
publicly available data, and
also did about 50 interviews
with perpetrators themselves and
people who knew them, their
victims, and first responders.
We identified this common
pathway to violence that we saw
over and over again.
It often started with a series
of violence in childhood abuse,
neglect, different forms of
trauma laid the foundation.
Then you see over time, a build
where they become isolated,
depressed, hopeless, oftentimes
this is a crisis where they are
actively suicidal or have
attempted suicide previously.
Then that self-hate turns
outward.
Can you see perpetrators finding
who it is that they blame for
how awful they feel.
A lot of times, they study other
mass shooters, they see
themselves in these previous
mass shooters, where they are
online in chat rooms or dark
corners of the internet getting
radicalized toward violence.
These mass shootings are meant
to be watched and witnessed.
They want their anger to go
viral.
They want their message to get
out there.
And they are designed to be
their final act.
They go into it knowing that
they will not come out.
And they have access to the
weapons they need to do the
shooting.
William: You mentioned before
that many of these cases end up
as suicides.
And there were not longer-term
plans for the rest of the day or
the day after.
What does that help us learn?
James: I think that is a really,
really important point.
And something which for us,
during this research, it was a
bit of an ah ha moment.
If you think of a mass shooting
as being a final act, and
somebody who perpetrates this
does not intend to get away with
it, that is never why they go
into this to begin with, many
mass shooters are suicidal prior
to the act.
They even have suicidal attempts
in their histories or they 100%
intend to die in the act, and
they write this in their diaries
or manifestoes and other things.
It changes the way we think
about prevention.
What can we learn from suicide
prevention techniques, which
were then applied to mass
shooters?
If mass shooters intend to die
in the act, if they no longer
care if they live or die, these
are people who are in a true
crisis in their lives.
But we learn from suicide
prevention could be applied to
get them out of that crisis to
begin with, but also in how we
talk about mass shootings.
We have protocols in place in
the media, when we talk about
suicide, we often will offer
resources.
We will say, here is the
telephone number for the
national suicide prevention
hotline.
We will not dwell on certain
details, because we are worried
about copycats and contagion.
Those same rules apply with mass
shooters.
Mass shootings are studying
other mass shooters.
If we can adhere by those same
rules when we think about these
events, that could also help
stop the next mass shooting.
And I think that is what is the
most important piece.
William: Are there other parts
of your research that within
these commonalities that you all
found that help us figure out
how to prevent, how to identify,
how to see these before they end
up in the newspaper?
Jillian: Yes.
In identifying this pathway to
violence, we thought about how
could you build off ramps at
different locations along this
pathway?
Because we have not understood
where these perpetrators are
coming from, our typical
response has been to try to
minimize casualties once they
occur, sadly.
We go through lockdown drills,
or we placed armed guards,
really late and stuff.
But what we realized through
this research is mass shooters
are not outsiders.
They are not these scary bad
guys coming in, they are kids
who go to that school, they are
our classmates, neighbors,
coworkers.
In some ways, that makes
prevention easier.
I think it requires a shift in
thinking.
But then it becomes noticing
when people around you have a
change in their behavior, and
having systems in place where we
can report that, and it will be
met with a response that is one
of care and concern and hooking
you up to resources, rather than
punishment or pushing you out.
William: Is it true that there
are red flags, to use this term,
in this conversation?
That there are signals that
people can be aware of and to
see clearly?
James: Absolutely, there is.
In fact, if you look at the
numbers in our database, about
half of the individuals that
went on to perpetrate a mass
shooting were communicating that
intent to do harm in advance.
In the case of school shooters
in particular, that number is
about 80%.
It is very common for people to
be telegraphing their violence
is coming.
They are often talking about it
with friends and family, which
is then dismissed as you know,
this is just that casual
conversation, don't worry about
it.
William: Just a disgruntled
teen.
James: Exactly.
Boys will be boys.
That type of mentality.
Or, they are posting things on
social media, which perhaps we
are not putting those pieces of
the puzzle together.
And that is the most critical
thing here.
Time and time again, we see a
consistent pattern after these
mass shootings wherein -- where
we can go back and look at them.
Which is to say, law enforcement
knew something, a parent knew
something, a teacher knew
something, a classmate or a peer
knew something.
They spotted things on social
media, they had seen drawings,
conversations, whatever it had
been.
But none of those individuals
were necessarily talking to one
another or sharing that
information, so it was never
rising to a level where there
would be an intervention.
That is usually the problem
here.
The systems are not necessarily
in place or fully functioning to
intervene at the crucial moment
to prevent the tragedy from
happening.
That is really on us, the onus
is on us to build those systems,
resource them, fund them, make
sure people no longer fall
through the cracks, so we can
get ahead of this problem, so we
are not looking back on it and
saying, these were missed
opportunities.
William: Jillian Peterson and
James densely, the research and
the book is called "The violence
project: How to stop a mass
shooting epidemic."
Thank you both so much for your
time.
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