today is Sunday October 14 2018 and this
is flash morning hi welcome to
flashpoint 24 days now until Election
Day in Michigan the polls in both the
big races for governor and Senate have
shown us big leads that you had to
expect would tighten as we got closer to
actually voting but races all over the
country of Titan considerably in the
past two weeks and Michigan is no
exception a new poll out this past week
now shows Gretchen Whitmer with a seven
and a half point lead over Bill Schuette
II that's closer than it's been
and it shows income at debbie Stabenow
with a nine point lead over john james
for the senate nine is a lot but that is
quite a bit closer than a month ago so
what is happening well those Brett
Kavanaugh hearings might have been
expected to energize the losing side but
they've also energized the winning side
we're going to talk about that a little
later on this morning but we're gonna
start with proposal to the overall
Michigan vote seems to be split pretty
evenly between Republicans and Democrats
and yet the mission congressional
delegation is in half and half it's
two-thirds Republican now does that
point to gerrymandering the designers of
proposal to say yes and they want a
panel of randomly selected everyday
folks to decide how the districts are
drawn and keep partisan lawmakers out of
it is that the right way forward it's up
first today on flashpoint
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you know it seems quite a while ago now
that we had Katie Fahey on the program
she had led a ragtag petition effort to
put an anti gerrymandering bill on the
ballot fast forward to today and after
surviving all kinds of legal challenges
her effort is now known as proposal two
and it's one of the big questions
awaiting you on Election Day and Katie
Fahey the executive director of voters
not politicians is back with us Katie
thanks for being here and so is Tony
daunt the executive director of the
Michigan freedom fund he's not so
enamored with the proposal I had you
both on a webcast this past week on
clickondetroit.com you both represent
your points awfully well so I thought
we'd move it over here to the broadcast
side and thank you both okay let me
start with you
let me let me start with the basics of
if we just set aside looking at the map
and some of these districts are so
strangely drawn these very weird
configurations why are you so sure the
gerrymandering is a problem where's was
the evidence of it you know we have
virtually non competitive elections at
the statewide level here in Michigan
also the League of Women Voters has
brought a lawsuit against the current
set of maps and a bunch of emails have
come out saying and showing that these
maps were designed to produce no
competition and to guarantee election
results not based on the will of the
people but based on the will of the
political parties and lobbyists and
special interests who control our
election cycle we do see though that
when we have statewide elections things
are a bit more competitive right
statewide elections that have a majority
vote the pool thing with redistricting
is that they're carved out maps with
only portions of the Michigan population
that are voting for those candidates and
at the statewide level for congressional
States state Senate and State House we
really have hardly any competitive
elections so Tony the last the last time
we elected their congressional
representatives two years ago we didn't
have one race where the margin was close
to the 10 points isn't that a sign that
she's right that we really don't have
competitive races they've been drawn
almost designed for that outcome I think
that you know there may be some some
things that could be done better with
with the way we do redistricting here in
in the state but ultimately we've got a
proposal here in front of us proposal
two and the question is yes or no and I
think that a no vote is is the way to go
and that's because
it's costly it's unaccountable it's
complex and it's unfair and I'd be happy
to hit on all I will do is you hit each
one of those I'll let Katie answer each
one so start with you think it's costly
you know we look through this proposal
and read through it a couple times
figuring out what's in there what does
it say and it mentions a minimum of what
the commissioners could get paid it
mentions a minimum of what the budget is
but if you look through the language
there's nothing in there about what the
maximum is and it's one thing to protect
the other voters from politicians but we
also need to protect the taxpayers from
the Commission and I think that's an
important you'd see that it was either a
mistake or was drawn deliberately
delaying okay this would almost work
like jury duty in a way you would be
selected at random to be a part of this
process but it could take a while and so
I guess you want to make sure that
people are paid but is it is it too wide
open so right now we currently pay for
redistricting so we'll be eliminating
that costs and moving it to this
commission when we do the math we see
it's about 11 cents a taxpayer once
every ten years when these lines are
redrawn which is returning one pop-can
and a penny so like saying a pop-can and
a penny for this we right now though
cannot have a system that is worse it's
done behind closed doors we don't
actually know the full cost that are
used because we can't use the Freedom of
Information Act to ask for that amount
from our legislators and what it has led
to is unaccountable elected
representatives the one thing in
democracy we should be able to depend on
is our vote actually mattering and in
some ways it's really stacked up or you
need some people's votes mean more and
some people votes me and less so that
price to actually have fair impartial
and transparent elections again here in
Michigan is pretty small the fairness
issue of this Tony I think the point
that she made the other night was you we
wouldn't let one team umpire a baseball
game over the other and that's kind of
what happens in this sort of
smoke-filled room idea we wouldn't let
one team umpire but we also wouldn't
pull 13 rein them people out of the
crowd to a game either and so I think
you know you're trading one potential
problem for another and Katie mentioned
the accountability aspect sure and the
people on this commission would be
accountable to nobody except themselves
it's 13 people randomly
selected from a pool it kind of how a
jury works really in a way you know
perhaps but you know this this proposal
is is taking the ability to hold people
accountable for the lines it's taking it
completely out of our hands at least
with the legislature at least with the
governor we have the ability to vote
them in or out of office and with these
people regardless of whether or not they
show up to meetings whether they commit
a crime that can't be removed unless
people on the commission remove them I
suppose there's a question to be asked
that if you've just happened to the
people that you drew just sort of
Wildcat up their way through a crazy
redrawing of districts we'd be stuck
with it well I would say right now that
our elected officials are not
accountable to us as voters they
actually do this so that they don't have
to be so that they have the math against
us
the commissioners though will have to
open in complete transparency they can't
hold meetings behind closed doors so the
people of Michigan will be watching the
entire way and they actually have to
respond to every comment that
Michiganders make to them the other
thing is there is a fail-safe where the
commissioners can vote each other off
the island if there's an extreme example
of negligence and also the rules for how
these maps have to be drawn are very
clearly laid out in the proposal which
means that they have timelines and
deadlines to be accomplishing things by
and if they aren't then again they can
be removed you've talked about the
process maybe you could use improvement
you'd at the very least I think would
suggest that it could use a little more
transparency right we should all be able
to see how this is being done I'm a
conservative skeptic of government and
of politicians so the Michigan freedom
fund has worked for a number of years to
try and get the legislature to pass FOIA
reform so that they are you know
affected by it and we think that
transparency that's one area where we
certainly agree but this sunshine is the
best disinfectant
you know it has that and 3,200 words of
other bad move to your next layer of
problems with it so you know I mentioned
the complexity and it's it is getting to
the language of it 3,200 words and to
give you some perspective the
Declaration of Independence the US
Constitution and the Bill of Rights all
all combined 6300 words fully one-half
of that for one proposal one amendment
to our Constitution there's gun
be mistakes in there there's gonna be
unintended consequences and we won't be
able to change it Thomas Jefferson and
James Madison not available economize it
is it's a lot when you look at it on
paper and that's for good reason there's
six states who have passed this who have
learned a lot from ways that politicians
still try to manipulate the system so we
have safeguards and checks and balances
within this language to make sure that
proper rules are set up so that the
intended purpose of having a fair
impartial in a transparent system is
actually followed Tony also doesn't
mention the parts of the Constitution
that actually be taken out because
they'll no longer be relevant this also
has to remove the power from the current
legislature to make sure that it is
given to this independent body because
if the governor or legislators can still
interfere then we have the same problem
we have right now which is why wanting
to make sure that we checked all of
those boxes to really let it be its own
body that's an interesting argument this
is Annette so she's she's sane then it's
like a 12,000 word change to our
Constitution I will keep that in mind
further your final concern the
unfairness and this this seeks to put
voters over politicians and I think in
theory that's a laudable goal
oh yes you're not going to say that it
should be the other way we will now
auditions now over voters no absolutely
no III would probably have to be looking
for other work if I was to say that but
but ultimately it purports to its claims
that there's going to get more people
involved well what they don't tell you
is that the folks who are prohibited
from this you know it's in the language
but you got to dig for it and if you are
involved at the local level if you are a
precinct delegate if you are a Township
Trustee if you serve on the local
Executive Committee of your political
party Republican or Democrat you are
prohibited from participating in this
process from serving than this
commission and that I think is wrong
these people are already civically
engaged and we're punishing them but
that's not in the most egregious part
the worst part is that your family
members are prohibited your parents your
children your spouse stepparent
stepchildren I think that that is a kind
of a silly way to get more people
involved is to exclude hundreds of
it's interesting Katie because I think a
lot of politicians believe that that the
profession of politics is sort of been
really fallen into a terrible reputation
over the years but there really is
something to being a professional and
understanding how legislation moves how
to work with the other side how to mitat
all or credence at all to this idea that
we've left the professionals out of it
you know I don't see a lot of
politicians reaching across the aisle
right now and I don't think the people
of Michigan do either I think that
unfortunately because these rules of the
game are currently corrupted because
there's a huge conflict of interest of
if I'm a politician being able to choose
who my voters are and whether I like the
way you vote or don't I think because of
that because of that unchecked power
we're dealing with an inefficient
government and this body really is to
try and take that conflict of interest
out which does include a wider group of
people but the only people who make
those decisions right now are the
currently elected politicians as well as
the political parties I know I have to
believe that when you started this I'm
not sure you expected you'd be sitting
here today what is there anything that
you have learned as you've gone through
this that you thought well we could have
done this better or we maybe
made' brought something to your
attention that you kind of say well you
know that's a pretty fair point you know
honestly I think we did this with a lot
of integrity it started from a Facebook
post and it's only been possible because
thousands of people actually over 14,000
people have stepped up to either you
know donate or be involved and we went
out to the people of Michigan and asked
their opinion so we held 33 town halls
and 33 days saying what do you think is
fair do you like that politicians do
that if not who should and the fact that
we took all that into account and that's
what drove our policy makes me feel like
the people of Michigan will want this
that's the end of the day totally one of
the law out of the flashpoint book of
knowledge one of the laws of politics is
the politicians almost never give up
power and we've watched is shocking and
we watch this thing have to survive all
these legal challenges which I think to
people like Katie and her her comrades
felt very much like just watching
death-grip of power trying to hang on to
this really important piece of this and
that to go back to your joke photos over
politicians that we don't want a favor
politicians over voters absolutely and
related to the court cases for instance
my mom was was a plaintiff on that court
case because of the unfairness because
she you know the most political thing
she's done is you know as you said
previously she gave birth to me and for
her to be excluded is is really unfair
and we wouldn't accept that kind of
discrimination based on age or ethnicity
or things like that we shouldn't accept
it on that so it wasn't just you know
politicians holding on it was people who
are offended by being excluded based on
their relatives and you could change the
way that we draw districts in a way that
because you you allowed that with of
your very first comment but it's
probably imperfect how would we do it
given that the people who are doing it
right now want to keep it that way
well we'd start by voting no on proposal
two and then we would we would come back
at it next year you know there are a few
states who do things with the Commission
one that may be worth looking at is Iowa
they have a model that allows the
non-partisans that write the bills a
lawyers to put something together and
then the legislature votes up or down on
it and then at least keeps the
accountability with the people we elect
and send to do those jobs be swayed by
the Iowa way I'm not but we did learn
from Iowa and took that into account so
yeah
Antoni your mom can attend the public
meetings I think you're both terrific
spokespeople for your points of view
thanks for very much for being here
we'll see what happens here 24 days from
now we'll talk about the latest polls in
the midterm elections right after this
this is flashpoint looking for
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