- I'm joined of course by Christopher Markus,
Stephen McFeely.
These are the guys that traumatized many people
by killing your favorite characters.
So, welcome guys.
- You're welcome! - Really a group effort.
- Anybody else you want killed?
Let me know. - Gonna be this guys.
- On the eve of 'Endgame',
some big bold choices in that one.
Was there one that you were most curious,
like, would the fans go for it,
would it work,
what felt like the riskiest choice in 'Endgame'
- I think killing Natasha
was the thing I worried about the most.
I thought it was,
and still think it's really important.
I think it's the appropriate story point.
It's the end of her journey.
It is the most heroic thing,
getting the Avengers back,
getting the world back,
she had so much red in her ledger,
coming so far and to make this heroic sacrifice.
But, you are killing the first female character
of the Marvel Cinematic Universe.
You could argue that there are more stories to be told.
Sounds like we're getting one. - Right.
- But, we collectively said
this is the right choice for us,
and we will live with the consequences.
- How far down the road did you get?
'Cause I know you talked about
you had a version where Hawkeye...
- We explore everything,
so at one point we asked
"Hey, what if we did this?"
- The math on the cliff would work.
We needed two people who loved each other,
one of them had to go over,
so we had to try both.
- And so, I guess my question is
did you extrapolate from there?
How would have that played out the rest of the movie,
did you go far down the road?
- I don't think we did,
I think it was in outline phase, maybe.
- Yeah. Basically it came down to
is this a tragic beat or is this...
With Natasha it's heroic.
- Right.
- With Clint it would be heroic,
but it's mainly like,
"Oh, that's so sad,
he didn't get with his family."
With Natasha it's like sort of strangely an up beat,
in that it is the fulfillment
of her absolute heroism.
- It's not unlike Tony's beat obviously.
They both die for the mission.
Hers comes at the end of act two
as opposed to the end,
so there are complications there, right?
Because the movie is not over. - Yes.
- The mission is not over,
and yet, given the rules of Vormir,
written by us, right? (Josh laughs)
We got to do somebody here sometime,
and yeah, more importantly it was
we knew we were going to escort people off the stage,
and so her being a hero
in this very private,
but important way seemed appropriate.
- Presumably it's not officially announced,
we presumably judging by pictures of them
actually making the movie,
have a 'Black Widow' movie--
(laughs) but I guess my question is,
did you have to thread in any story points
or references into this film
about potentially future 'Black Widow'?
- Marvel is very good about not stressing about
what's coming next. - Right.
- And about not sharing with us.
- Well, about not sharing,
but also they're not, you know...
If you wanna kill somebody or, you know,
really dirty them up or something like that,
they're not gonna go, - Right.
- "You got another one."
They'll find a way.
They're not gonna change their plans necessary
because of it,
but they're not gonna blunt the movie they're working on
for the sake of the next one down the line.
- Best story wins, yeah.
- In your head,
do you know what happened in Budapest?
- Oh!
- A lot of things happened past that day.
- No, there's not a definitive one that we have.
- (laughs) Just curious.
I feel like the next 'Black Widow' movie
should be called 'Black Widow, What Happened in Budapest'.
- Yes, finally, people. (laughing)
- You obviously had a lot of real estate
between these two films-- - Yeah.
- in terms of just like the amount of time
that Disney was willing to go down the road with you.
That being said,
you have 30 minutes more
of script running time in 'Endgame'
is there something you didn't,
that you wanted to kind of would have
liked to have explored more?
You did an amazing service to this ensemble
is there a character,
or group that you feel like--
- In 'Endgame'. - you were wanting to go down?
- I don't think anybody got short shrift,
to tell you the truth.
There were certainly endless other scenes
and sequences that we wrote.
A lot of them got cut
because we realized
we were starting the story too early.
We were visiting people before the story had gotten to them.
We were just sort of like,
"What were they up to before the movie got around to 'em?"
- Particularly in 'Infinity War',
we did that a lot. - Yeah, there was a ton of it.
So while I like those scenes,
I don't miss'em. - Yeah.
- And that's the challenge of long form storytelling
verses a successful two-hour,
in this case three-hour movie
that's meant to stand on its own. Right?
Like I would love to tell you
what Steve and Natasha,
and Sam were doing after 'Civil War',
but before 'End', bro, - Yeah.
- But, you know, its got to be on stones, man.
- Well, and the interesting thing also for you guys now,
is like you don't have a another Marvel thing
on the docket right now. - Yeah.
- Who knows where the future will take you.
And so you can speak to it as fans now
in terms of where it goes,
and what you'd be interested in seeing.
Like I'm curious like,
we know like Shang-Chi
and Eternals and Black Panther too,
there are bunch of things
that are in the pipeline potentially.
As fans though,
what are you excited to see?
- I'm excited about
all those ones you just mentioned.
Particularly because I really don't know
those properties very well. - Yeah.
- So it really does put me much more in the fan position.
- Yeah, 'Eternals' feels like 'Guardians' in a way.
- Yeah. It's exciting. - Exciting for me, man.
- I'm intrigued by what they'll do
with the things they're getting back from Fox.
- Yeah.
- I probably, you know, I'd go slow--
- So what's your advice?
How do you weave in 'X-Men', 'Fantastic 4'.
- I'd go slow,
and also, if you wanted to
you could conceivably take the 'Avengers' model.
Again, this is pure speculation.
- This is three nerds just talking.
It's all good. (laughs)
- You could make solo movies,
and then bring them together as the 'X-Men'.
You don't necessarily have to follow,
'cause-- - Pull back a curtain,
and they're there.
- Yeah, we have had so many models of the school,
- Yes. - Right.
- the Xavier School.
And while that is canon in the comics,
maybe there's another way to think about it.
So that you don't wanna make them just like the 'Avengers',
but you also don't wanna make them
just like the movies that are running.
- That's the only thing I will guarantee
is that Kevin is not gonna do it
like you've seen it though already.
- And then presumably,
I'm gonna presumably see Kevin
before this weekend is out.
I'll probably ask him the same thing.
Like if a space war begins,
presumably he's already has in mind
like what the next culmination,
what the next major event is.
- The next 'Endgame' is?
- Well just knowing that like you guys planted the seeds
as early as you did for this one,
is it 'Secret Wars', is it...
Again, from a fan perspective,
what do you think should be the next,
major event that culminates a phase?
- I honestly don't know.
Having just come off a big culmination,
it's not what I want to think about.
(laughing)
- That's the last thing. (laughs)
- My mind wants to get back to
some individual superhero stories.
- Yeah, right.
I wanna see what Cooglar does
- Rebuild. - next time out.
- One of the things that makes Marvel work the way it works
is there are mile markers flung in the distance
that they don't necessarily need to get to.
They're not,
"Everything must march in lock step over there
because we need to have the Beyonder show up,"
or something like that. - Right.
- It's loose.
- And they have the luxury of 20 characters
you're in love with
that they can go down, along if they want.
- That's the thing.
If they want to super conservative,
why don't you make simply 'Doctor Strange 2',
'Black Panther 2'.
Like they've got money in the bank.
- Yeah. They got a choice of what they want.
- They're using the capital.
- You guys are so closely associated
with the Cap storyline obviously,
and we're gonna see 'Falcon & Winter Soldier',
for Disney Plus.
I'm curious like,
for you is it settled in your mind,
as Sam's Captain America?
It's curious they've called it 'Falcon & Winter Soldier'.
- Oh, yeah. - It's not 'Captain America'.
- Yeah, I don't know if--
- As far as from your perspective.
- In my perspective it is,
settled in my mind that he's Captain America.
That said, I don't know if one just picks up the shield,
and is Captain America. - Right.
- It takes work on a person's part
to figure out who Captain America is to them.
Who they are as Captain America.
Sam has been the Falcon. - Yes.
- He's been a soldier,
then he's been Falcon.
Is Sam as Captain America
just Falcon with a shield on his arm?
- Right.
- What is the process that he needs to go through
to embody that? - Right.
What does it mean for him specifically to embody
a symbol of America at this time?
- I can also imagine the weight of that moment,
when we see him in that costume
for many reasons. - Oh, yeah.
- It's gonna be a very powerful thing
the culmination of that show
or the next 'Avengers' or whatever it is.
Do you think next 'Avengers' we see
has a another word associated with it,
like Young Avengers?
- Oh! - I don't know.
- Zombie Avengers, right?
- Baby Avengers, right?
(laughing)
- Turns them into 'Muppet Babies'?
- Right. - I'm in. (laughs)
- I honestly don't know.
- He's gonna zag.
- It could go anywhere.
- Who's the hardest Avenger to write for?
Who is your toughest,
that you always have to like...
- Natasha was tough because she doesn't like
to emote all that much. - Right.
- Steve doesn't either,
but we'd taken him longer
and we just had him more.
- We know the history that is weighing on Steve,
- Ah, good point.
- Natasha it's all murky. - Right.
- Which is the attraction of the character,
but it's also it's harder to pull things out,
and make it seem fresh.
- We tried,
"Here's a story,
I'm gonna tell you from my past."
Right, it did not work. - Right.
- I didn't want to know it, (laughs)
and I didn't want her to tell it to me,
but we certainly tried it.
- It felt like (mumbles) character.
- It wasn't in her nature at all.
Yeah, so that was tough.
- The Russo's have eluded to like one other Cap story
they wanna tell one day,
do you know what they're talking about?
- I might, - I might.
- There are great Cap stories left on the tape,
no doubt.
Hell, if you had all the time and money in the world,
there's a big montage in World War II
in the first movie that's got stories in it.
- Yeah.
- You could bring back all the Howling Commandos
and just go to town. - Right.
- The thing about the trilogy
and these two movies
is we've always been able to push Cap forward,
and evolve his character.
It would be fun,
but I don't know that it would have the character weight
that I'd like it to have.
- Did you ever go down on that road at all in talking,
in terms of the two of you,
and going to Marvel for like something set in that period?
- Oh, we've pitched them 'Camp Lehigh' series.
(laughing)
Wouldn't it be great?
- We've had a couple-- - 1970s.
- of times in 'Winter Soldier' and in 'Civil War'.
You tried to build a trope of
flashing back to a World War II story
that is coinciding with the contemporary story.
And I still love that structure.
- Right.
- It just kept being unnecessary.
- Right, an embarrassment of riches.
- It was an embarrassment of riches,
and there was nothing being conveyed in the past section
that you didn't understand from the present.
- You could tell when you cut it.
If you cut it
and it didn't distract from the story,
then that's telling you can say. (laughs)
- But it was always cool to put...
Particularly when you have a character
who is in both time periods, - Yeah.
- So you have Steve-- - You have license to do it.
- If you have Steve Rogers standing in a field in Germany
that's totally peaceful,
and then you flashback to that same guy
standing in field just covered with blood and bullets,
- Yeah. - That's amazing.
- Yes.
- There's something to do there,
I just don't know what it is.
- Your unique vantage point,
I feel like as fanboys,
and people that have culminated a,
at least a part of a franchise,
a part of a series, for 'Star Wars',
I'm just curious episode nine--
- You're asking our opinion on 'Star Wars'?
- 'Episode IX', they have to end a 40 plus years saga,
nine films,
what do you think they have to answer,
how would you even approach?
- This is the one,
I've lost track of the numbers,
nine is the one that's actually, they've already shot it.
- Nine is JJ's second one.
Yes, it's coming--
- It's coming this Christmas.
- Yeah. Well, I mean.
- Oh, I don't know.
I think it's so difficult. (laughing)
They have such the weight of my childhood.
- You have a pretty tough task.
- Yeah, but it's all invented right now
in front of our eyes
in the last 10 years, right? - Yeah.
It's not going back to little Steve McFeely
when he was six, you know. (laughs)
- (laughs) He's a dad, what?
- It's so fraught.
(laughing)
Yeah, they certainly don't need any advice from us,
but I'm trying to go in there.
- It's an equally fascinating universe,
they've got there.
- Yes, a challenge (mumbles).
- In general, I'd like to see it move forward
and not backwards,
you know, like. - Yes.
- I would prefer not another Death Star.
- (laughs) We've seen a few of those, right?
(laughing)