You're listening to "Jonesy's Jukebox."
And we're doing it live from the Chrome
Hearts store in New York City.
My guest is Danny Boyle and Craig Pierce.
You two, I mean, that's where it all really started.
Well, we started with you because you wrote a book.
The three of us.
Yeah, the three of us.
This is where it all started.
You were on board first.
I listened to your audiobook because I
can't really read very well.
Like, you know, you couldn't back in the day,
but you can now.
I prefer audio.
I can't read.
I love audiobooks, yeah.
Listening to the audiobook gave me--
it gave me a whole lot of insight
into your character beyond what was-- it was like subtext.
It was like being able to hear really clearly the subtext
because of the emotion in your voice
when you read certain parts.
And the humor came across beautifully.
That's how it started.
And then I wrote a screenplay for the first episode,
the pilot-- what's called the pilot episode.
Yeah.
And then we got it to Danny.
I can't even remember what happened.
We put ourselves into a part with directors.
I was trying to find out who you
went to before you got to me.
We didn't go to anyone.
[LAUGHS] Yeah, everybody always says that.
Come on. - No, we didn't.
We actually didn't. STEVE JONES: No.
We didn't.
STEVE JONES: We didn't.
We weren't going out to directors.
I actually wrote-- beyond the pilot,
I wrote, like, an outline--
sorry, a bible.
It was an eight-episode bible.
And I remember Danny was like, it's not eight episodes.
It's six.
So right even from then, you was thinking
of episodes and not a movie.
I always thought it was going to be a movie.
I didn't realize-- CRAIG PIERCE: Did you?
I always thought I was going to be a TV series.
I love a series. I love it.
Yeah.
You've got six hours--
Yeah.
--and you can binge.
It's way better than 90 minutes--
Yeah, I love--
--most movies.
You know, you can really--
Yeah, it's like a novel--
Get stuck in.
As opposed to a short story.
And what made you come on board, Danny?
I didn't meet you until yesterday.
STEVE JONES: Yeah. - Because of COVID--
STEVE JONES: Yeah.
--by the time I got involved, everything was locked down.
And we could talk to you on Zoom, which we did.
Yeah.
But otherwise, I didn't meet you
in person until yesterday, which is an extraordinary thing.
Yeah.
And I was thinking about that.
And I was thinking it's quite good in a way, because Craig
had met you-- and told--
most importantly, as well, told me--
Yeah.
--of course, he plays you and met you.
Yeah.
And so they'd had the personal contact.
Because when you're doing somebody's life, like,
you have to both be respectful and including you also have
to keep a distance as well. - Yeah.
And we sort of-- that's the way we did it.
You were the contact-- - Yeah.
--person. And I was like--
Yes. Yeah.
Because otherwise-- because you've got to make
your own version of your life.
Your book is your life.
That's your version--
STEVE JONES: Yeah.
--with a bit of help from Ben.
STEVE JONES: Yeah.
But this is our version of your life--
Yeah.
--in a way.
And it's not quite your life, is it?
I mean, it is and it isn't, you know?
It's weird.
When I watch it, and I see--
I see Toby, I'm almost like--
I'm disassociated.
I don't see him as me. CRAIG PIERCE: Yeah.
STEVE JONES: I'm just seeing it as a movie.
CRAIG PIERCE: Yeah.
I don't look at him and think, that's me.
CRAIG PIERCE: Yeah. - It's bizarre.
I had to do that writing it at a certain point,
like even writing the first episode.
I mean, I know I probably had a more romantic version of you.
Writing the script, even in the first-- even the first episode,
there was a certain point where I
was like, oh, I've got to start thinking of Steve
as a fictional character.
Because otherwise, you don't deal with the ideas enough,
and you don't deal with the drama enough.
It becomes a little bit like a home movie almost.
So yeah, I can imagine you feeling like that.
It must be weird to watch-- for it
to be, wow, that's Steve Jones, but it's not Steve Jones.
And that's me, but it's not me.
I mean, it's brilliant as well.
I mean, not many people--
CRAIG PIERCE: Yeah.
--get that opportunity--
CRAIG PIERCE: No, no.
--on such a big stage, you know.
CRAIG PIERCE: Yeah.
One of the things I really--
I find astonishing in the book--
when I read the book is because we're literally the same age--
Yeah.
--the older references.
It was scary.
And I come from a--
I come from a very loving working-class background,
but a working-class background.
And it was scary how the references were all the same.
STEVE JONES: Yeah.
I was just--
I mean, it felt like-- and obviously, the tone of voice--
It's weird.
I was thinking about reading.
I mean, you obviously got it most from hearing Steve live.
I got it from the page. - Yeah.
Yeah.
I don't-- you could hear your voice.
Yeah.
And it was authentic.
Yeah.
And I don't know how you make that judgment.
Because it could be a lie-- - Yeah.
--but it's not.
You go, no, that's authentic. I believe that.
STEVE JONES: Yeah. - Because it's also--
Yeah.
It's also the way you don't spare yourself, you know.
There's something so convincing.
I mean, I know that could be a tactic,
but it's-- but it's not. It feels like it's--
I'm not that smart.
DANNY BOYLE: [LAUGHS]
So is it episode 3, "Pauline?"
I want to-- I want to ask you, what it was-- because it's
almost the whole episode you wanted to focus
on "Bodies" and Pauline.
Can you tell us what that was all about?
It's a big chronologic-- deliberate
chronological misplacement.
Because, obviously, "Bodies" and "Holidays in the Sun"
are the only two songs that arrived,
were written after Glen--
- Yeah. - --left.
Yeah.
You know, after Glen--
and we talked a lot about this because we were
deliberately making a mistake.
And I think we felt that--
Right.
--we wanted--
I find "Bodies" still today really
disturbing and with a power that very,
very few songs actually have.
Some of them do.
And they grip you and kind of push your face into them.
They grip you and pull your face into them.
This is not just a pop group.
Yeah.
This is a force to be reckoned with.
Yeah.
And that song still has that power.
So we sort out the story, you know, behind it
and manipulated it in the way you do in drama.
It's so difficult to illustrate how songs arrive.
And our-- the guy who did our music, Rick Smith,
from Underworld, who-- - Yeah.
--trained the band.
And he has this wonderful phrase where he says,
"These songs are the liquid architecture of our lives."
And that's true, I think.
Because they just follow us everywhere, and yet
they're ungraspable.
They're obviously-- they're just part of you.
STEVE JONES: Yep.
And yet they just flow around you.
And they mean different things at different times.
And to try and nail how it arrived
is impossible because it's liquid.
You can't nail it and say, this is how it happened.
Yeah.
Somebody came in and said-- so we tried to give
an impression of how it might have arrived
from different sources--
STEVE JONES: Yeah.
--your story, and then John's story, and how they're brought
together to perform the song.
OK.
Well, we're going to knock it on the head.
But before we go, both of you've got to ask me a question.
So what's your favorite bit of music in the show?
I love the use of Hawkwind.
Yeah.
And I love the fact that you actually got Lemmy in there.
- I know. - Yeah.
Isn't that lovely, that moment?
- It's brilliant. - Yeah.
- Brilliant. - Yeah.
Yeah.
At first, I--
because it's a live version.
You know, I wanted to hear, like, the single.
CRAIG PIERCE: Yeah.
You know, but when you've got actually Lemmy in it doing it--
Yeah.
--it's great.
What's the most difficult part of the show for you to watch,
or scene, or aspect of it?
You know, the fiddling part with the stepfather, of course.
Yeah.
But it's not brutal.
Everything's relevant.
That, for me, was a turning point in my life, I mean.
Even though it--
I remember it only happening in once.
When you think of the poor kids that get messed with for years,
you know--
but that was enough for me to turn me in a weird direction,
you know.
But I loved the conversation at the end with me and John.
We kind of have that heart-to-heart thing.
It's really, really great.
I think that's one of me favorite.
And it's really interesting you mentioned that because--
and Craig knows this-- one of the things--
it's especially true when you're making
a film because you're always searching for the ending.
Yeah.
And although in long-form television in a way they say,
don't search for the ending.
Keep it going.
Yeah.
At some point, you have to find your ending.
- Yeah. - And you're always--
Yeah.
And the ending should be a result of your work together.
Yeah.
You know, it shouldn't just be premeditated.
And so when we did-- didn't we? Worked--
CRAIG PIERCE (VOICEOVER): Yeah.
DANNY BOYLE (VOICEOVER): --and worked at that to find--
CRAIG PIERCE (VOICEOVER): Yeah.
DANNY BOYLE (VOICEOVER): --quite how
to complete the story somehow.
STEVE JONES (VOICEOVER): Yeah.
CRAIG PIERCE (VOICEOVER): --with that conversation and then
with a memory of Huddersfield. STEVE JONES (VOICEOVER): Yeah.
CRAIG PIERCE (VOICEOVER): Yeah.
DANNY BOYLE (VOICEOVER): You know,
the Christmas Day appearance. CRAIG PIERCE (VOICEOVER): Yeah.
STEVE JONES (VOICEOVER): Yeah.
I don't want to say a happy ending,
but it was a happy moment.
CRAIG PIERCE (VOICEOVER): Yeah. DANNY BOYLE (VOICEOVER): Yeah.
And it was a perfect way to end it.
Yeah.
Craig Pierce, Danny Boyle, thanks for coming by.
Steve Jones--
Thanks for having us, Steve.
--thank you very much for so many things.
- Hey! - Thank you.
See you later.
And you can stream all episodes of "Pistol" now.
[ROCK MUSIC]