>>> WELCOME BACK TO "HARDBALL." AS I TOLD YOU, THERE'S LOTS OF
GOOD STUFF FROM MY INTERVIEW
WITH JOHN McCAIN.
WE TALK ABOUT THE PRESIDENT'S
ACTIONS ON IMMIGRATION.
THE IRANIAN NUCLEAR THREAT AS
WELL AS HIS VIEWS ON HILLARY
CLINTON AND RAND PAUL.
I STARTED BY ASKING HIM ABOUT
HIS NEW BOOK, 13 SOLDIERS AND
THE LESSONS HE LEARNED FIGHTING
IN VIETNAM.
IN VIETNAM. AS WELL AS HIS OPPOSITION TO THE
ADMINISTRATION'S RESTRAINED
ADMINISTRATION'S RESTRAINED APPROACH TO FIGHTING THE WAR
AGAINST ISIS.
AGAINST ISIS. HERE IT COMES.
>> WHAT STRUCK ME WAS THE PART
ABOUT VIETNAM.
ABOUT VIETNAM. PEOPLE THINK OF YOU AS A VETERAN
OF VIETNAM.
OF VIETNAM. YOU WERE STRUCK DOURN AND YOU'VE
BEEN THROUGH IT ALL.
THE RESENTMENT WAS TOWARD
GOVERNMENT.
GOVERNMENT. LINLDSON JOHNSON IN THAT CASE
WHO HAD RIDICULOUS RULES OF
ENGAGEMENT.
ENGAGEMENT. SO THE GUY FLYING THE PLANE,
YOU, WERE ENDANGERED AND HANOI
WAS SAFE.
WAS SAFE. WE'LL TALK ABOUT THAT.
>> WELL, VERY BRIEFLY, WE
WATCHED RUSSIAN SHIPS COMING
INTO THE PORT, OFFLOAD SURFACE
TO AIR MISSILES, PUT THEM ON
TRUCKS, TAKE THEM MILES AND
MILES UP ROADS AND THEN BE PUT
IN PLACE AND WE WERE NOT ALLOWED
TO GO AFTER THEM.
AND THEN THEY WERE SHOT AT US.
ONE OF THEM SHOT ME DOWN.
THAT WAS TERRIBLY FRUSTRATING.
THE TARGETS WERE DECIDED
LITERALLY IN THE OVAL OFFICE AS
TO WHICH ONES WOULD BE HIT.
THEY HAD THIS IDEA, IF THEY
GRABBED McNAMARA, JOHNSON, IF
THEY GRADUALLY ESCALATED, THEN
IT WOULD SQUEEZE THE NORTH
VIETNAMESE AND THEY WOULD COME
TO THE BARGAINING TABLE.
WELL, IT HAD THE OPPOSITE
EFFECT.
EFFECT. THE VIETNAMESE, WELL, WE STOOD
UP AGAINST.
UP AGAINST. THAT WE SAW THE ESCALATION IN
THE SOUTH.
THE SOUTH. FIRST IT WAS PRIM GUARDS AND
THEN IT WAS SUBMARINES AND THEN
IT WAS, AND IT GOT BUILT UP AND
BUILT UP.
BUILT UP. BUT WE LOST THE WAR.
AND THAT'S JUST A FACT.
AND SO I'M SEEING THE SAME KIND
OF GRADUALISM IN THIS PRESENT
WHITE HOUSE.
WHITE HOUSE. AND I'M ALSO SEEING A
MICROMANAGEMENT FROM THE WHITE
HOUSE AS WELL.
>> IN YOUR BOOK YOU TALK ABOUT
THE NORTH VIETNAMESE WOULD
DEPARTMENT EVERY TIME WE
ESCALATED OR INCREASED OUR
RESPONSE.
RESPONSE. THE LOWER WE WENT IN FIGHTING
THE WAR, THE FASTER THEY WENT.
IS THAT HAPPENING NOW?
>> WHAT WE'RE SEEING IS A
GRADUAL ESCALATION.
GRADUAL ESCALATION. THE PRESIDENT JUST ANNOUNCED
1,500 MORE.
1,500 MORE. AND MARK MY WORDS, HE WILL HAVE
TO ANNOUNCE SOME MORE WITHIN A
CERTAIN PERIOD OF TIME.
NO MILITARY STRATEGIST THAT I
KNOW BELIEVES THAT WHAT WE'RE
DOING NOW WILL DEFEAT, DEGRADE
AND DEFEAT ISIS.
IN OTHER WORDS IN THE WORDS OF
FORM HE SECRETARY PANETTA AND
FORMER SECRETARY GATES, BOTH, I
WAS THERE LAST WEEKEND, THAT THE
CAPABILITIES AND THE STRATEGY
DOES NOT MATCH ONE THE GOAL OF
DEGRADING AND ULTIMATELY
DESTROYING ISIS.
DESTROYING ISIS. ONE OTHER THING I NEED TO GET
OFF MY CHEST.
TELLING THE SYRIAN ARMY WE'LL
TRAIN THEM AND SEND THEM INTO
THE FIGHT.
THE FIGHT. HE IS INTENSIFYING HIS ATTACKS
ON THE FREE SYRIAN ARMY AND WE
AREN'T DOING ANYTHING TO INHINT
BASHAR ASSAD FOR DOING THAT.
THE SAME GUY RESPONSIBLE FOR
200,000 DEATHS IN SYRIA.
THAT'S IMMORAL.
THAT'S IMMORAL. >> SO WE HAVE TO GO AFTER BOTH
SIDES.
SIDES. >> YES.
>> YES. IF YOU WANT TO DEFEAT ISIS AND
DO WHAT THE PRESIDENT ALSO SAID.
THAT BASHAR ASSAD MUST GO.
SO RIGHT NOW WE ARE GIVING
BASHAR ASSAD FREE RAIN TO
DECIMATE THE FREE SYRIAN ARMY
AND THAT'S WHAT'S HAPPENING.
THEY'RE BEING SLAUGHTERED.
AND BY THE WAY, SOME OF THEM ARE
CROSSING OVER TO ANOTHER
EXTREMIST OUTFIT BECAUSE THEY'RE
NOT GETTING THE HELP THAT WE HAD
PROMISED THEM ON MANY OCCASIONS.
IT IS A SERIOUS, SERIOUS THREAT
TO THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
OVER TIME.
OVER TIME. >> YOU'RE WRITING THIS BOOK FROM
THE SOLDIERS' POINT OF VIEW.
LIKE THE GUY JOSEPH MARTIN.
THIS GUY FOUGHT IN THE BATTLE OF
NEW YORK IN LONG ISLAND.
HE ENDS UP FIGHTING IN YORKTOWN.
HE FOLLOWS THE CAMPAIGN ALL THE
WAY THROUGH.
WAY THROUGH. >> JOINS AT AGE 15.
AND HE MANAGES TO STAY IN THE
WAR UNTIL THE END.
>> AND ALMOST STARVES TO DEATH.
THE CONDITIONS, WE HEAR ABOUT
VALLEY FORGE.
VALLEY FORGE. THEY WERE LITERALLY STARVING.
AND ALSO, WE POINT OUT.
SOMETHING, I DIDN'T KNOW MUCH
ABOUT THIS.
ABOUT THIS. IT WAS 30 YEARS BEFORE THEY GAVE
A PENSION TO THESE SOLDIERS.
AND HE WAS VERY ANGRY AND BITTER
ABOUT IT.
ABOUT IT. >> WAS IT $90 A YEAR?
>> SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
NOW NO, MATTER HOW WE FEEL ABOUT
AMERICA'S INVOLVEMENT, HE WITH
HONOR OUR VETS.
NOT THAT LONG AGO, EVERYWHERE IN
AMERICA WE ONLY HAD OUR VETS.
AND IT IS VERY UPLIFTING.
>> THE VIETNAM VETERANS DID NOT
GET THE WELCOME HOME THAT THEY
DESERVED.
DESERVED. THEY GOT LATER ON.
FINALLY, ONE OTHER POINT.
ONE OF THE GREAT THINGS WE DO IN
AMERICA FROM EACH OF THESE
STATES.
STATES. THEY LAND HERE AND TAKE THEM
DOWN TO THE WORLD WAR II
MEMORIAL.
MEMORIAL. THE WORLD WAR II VETERANS.
IT IS SO MOVING.
IT IS WONDERFUL.
>> LET ME ASK YOU.
SOLDIERS DON'T LIKE THIS BOOTS
ON THE GROUND REFERENCE.
WE'RE PEOPLE.
WE'RE PEOPLE. WE'RE GIs, NOT JUST BOOTS.
WE'RE TALKING ABOUT PUTTING
1,500, AS YOU SAID, MORE.
THAT'S NOT GOING TO DO IT.
SO WE EMBED THEM WITH COMPANIES.
THEN THEY GET CAPTURED.
WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO IF ONE
OF THEM GETS CAPTURED AND THEY
START BEHEADING THEM?
>> I THINK IT WOULD BE REALLY
TERRIBLE.
TERRIBLE. THEY DON'T HAPPEN TO BE IN
UNIFORM WHICH IS REALLY --
>> CAN WE, AMERICAN PEOPLE STAND
THE IDEA OF A UNIFORMED SOLDIER
BEHEADED?
BEHEADED? WOULDN'T THAT JUST ESCALATE THIS
WAR TO A FURY?
>> BECAUSE OF THE VALUE WE PLACE
ON AMERICAN LIVES, CITIZENS OR
NONCITIZENS.
NONCITIZENS. BUT LOOK.
BUT LOOK. NOTHING IS FOR CERTAIN.
THERE IS A GREAT, THAT'S WHY
THEY CALL IT THE FOG OF WAR.
WHAT WE'RE DOING NOW.
EVERY MILITARY OFFICER THAT I
KNOW OUTSIDE OF THE PRESIDENT
HIERARCHY BELIEVES WE NEED, WHAT
WE'RE DOING WILL NOT ACHIEVE --
THE FIRST THING IS NO-FLY ZONE
IN SYRIA.
IN SYRIA. I WOULD GIVE WEAPONS.
NOT DIVISIONS.
NOT DIVISIONS. YOU COULD DO IT WITH A NO
ZONE MUCH MORE EASILY.
BUT I UNDERSTAND THE AMERICAN
PEOPLE DO NOT WANT THE MASSIVE
INFLUX OF TROOPS.
I THINK THAT WOULD NOT BE
PRODUCTIVE.
PRODUCTIVE. WHAT WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO DO
IS BE A LOT MORE INVOLVED.
TO SAY ISIS IN IRAQ CAN BE READ
THE IN ONE FASHION, WITH ONE
STRATEGY.
STRATEGY. AND ISIS IN SYRIA WITH ANOTHER.
THAT'S CRAZY.
THAT'S CRAZY. AND BY THE WAY, THE AIR, WHAT
WE'RE DOING FROM THE AIR NOW IS
ABSOLUTELY MINIMAL.
ABSOLUTELY MINIMAL. TALKING ABOUT FOUR OR FIVE
STRIKES.
STRIKES. TODAY DESERT STORM.
>> WHAT'S THE HESITANCE?
ARE WE AFRAID OF HITTING
HOSPITALS?
HOSPITALS? >> WE DON'T HAVE THE TARGET
INFORMATION.
INFORMATION. YOU HAVE AIR CONTROLLERS ON THE
GROUND.
GROUND. >> HOW DO WE GET THEM WITHOUT
AMERICANS?
AMERICANS? >> IT WOULD HAVE TO BE
AMERICANS.
AMERICANS. >> THAT'S RISKY.
>> I AGREE.
NO GOOD OPTIONS.
>> LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT YOUR
PARTY IN THIS REGARD.
RAND PAUL WHO APPEALS TO PEOPLE
LIKE ME BECAUSE HE IS PRETTY
DOVISH.
DOVISH. HE REFERRED TO HILLARY CLINTON
AS A WAR HAWK.
WHAT DOES THAT MAKE YOU?
IT SEEMS ODD WE MIGHT HAVE A
HAWKISH DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATE.
>> I'M NOT SURE I THINK IN THE
DICTIONARY CAN WE HAVE A HAWKISH
DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATE AGAINST A
DOVISH REPUBLICAN CANDIDATE?
>> LET ME GIVE YOU THE GOOD NEWS
FROM MY STANDPOINT.
TOM COTTON IN ARKANSAS AND SOME
OTHERS LIKE NORTH CAROLINA, AND
GEORGIA.
GEORGIA. SO THERE ARE MUCH MORE, I HATE
TO USE THE WORD, THE WORD IS
INTERNATIONALISTS.
INTERNATIONALISTS. AND THEN ISOLATIONISTS.
SO I THINK WE HAVE STRENGTHENED
OUR RANKS.
OUR RANKS. BY THE WAY, EVER SINCE THESE
BEHEADINGS, THE AMERICAN PUBLIC
OPINION HAS SWUNG RATHER
DRAMATICALLY.
DRAMATICALLY. WHICH HAS CHANGED SOME OF, I'VE
SEEN THE CHANGE IN SOME OF RAND
PAUL'S RHETORIC.
PAUL'S RHETORIC. >> COMING UP, MORE OF MY
INTERVIEW WITH JOHN McCAIN AS WE
MOVED ON THE PATH TO WAR.
THE WHITE HOUSE IS FACING, OR
RACING AGAINST CLOCK ON A DEAL
TO STOP IRAN.
WE'LL HEAR WHAT HE HAS TO SAY
ABOUT THAT.
ABOUT THAT. WHAT HE SAYS ABOUT STOPPING
ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION IN THIS
COUNTRY.
COUNTRY. ESPECIALLY WHAT HE HAS TO SAY
ABOUT HILLARY CLINTON AND WHAT
IT TAKES TO BE PRESIDENT.