(electronic noise)
- [Man On Phone] Gary, what's up, buddy?
How are you?
- Life is good, man.
Thank you so much for your email.
I have a lot of empathy
what it takes to send an email like that,
and so I appreciate the feedback.
- [Man On Phone] Yeah, you know,
I think me and you kind of have a good relationship from,
you know, stemming back to Aria
through the years. - Yep.
- [Man On Phone] And, you know, you're an honest guy,
and me too. - Yep.
- [Man On Phone] And you know, it is what it is.
- Yeah, let me give you my take on it,
and then why don't you fire away with some question
based on the feedback I'm about to give you, cool?
- [Man On Phone] Yeah, yeah.
- So, you know, in that podcast that I gave,
contextually, the way I framed it, I don't know,
obviously there was clips
that I don't know how many people watched the whole podcast
or listened to the whole podcast,
or what context I could have created that was better
or building on me talking about this
at Agent 2021 and other places.
It is deeply my opinion that the amount,
that far too many people in their 20's and 30's
maximize their down payment on a home, right?
Leaving them with no liquid
to be able to do things with them.
And if they are, like me, like I said, I, right?
And are entrepreneurial and on the offense,
that there are better uses of their dollars
than buying a home.
Because in renting a home or an apartment,
they would take that two, theoretically that two, 300,000
that they're putting down on a down payment,
and they're putting it to work,
whether in their business, building their brand through ads,
or investing in the stock market.
Right?
- [Man On Phone] Okay.
- That's my point of view.
Obviously, in lieu off the way you wrote the email,
a couple things.
Number one, Agent 2021.
First of all, I think probably
the most important part of this, brother,
is I don't think that my opinion is A,
covering most people, B, it's not necessarily right.
It's my hypothesis of where the world's going,
not how the world acted in the past.
Right?
Number two, I'm in advertising,
I have a $200 million advertising company,
and every single piece of content
that I put out that you see,
99.9% of my customers do not agree with me on.
- [Man On Phone] I'm definitely, just so you know,
I'm definitely not one of those people.
Obviously, I follow you, I watch you,
we've interacted before - Yep, yep.
- [Man On Phone] I believe in a lot of the shit you say,
and to be honest, I think that you're right,
as far as if you're an entrepreneur
in your 20's or 30's that there is,
you could live at home and stay with
mom and dad - Yep.
and invest.
- Or, or, or, by the way, or my point is,
I think there's gonna be an interesting emerging opportunity
for people to rent homes versus buying them, right?
- [Man On Phone] 100%, I live in Miami,
and all of the ground up development that didn't
- That's right, that's right.
- [Man On Phone] Break ground,
they changed to the rental market.
I mean, it is what it is.
It's the times.
- I think in hind sight,
A, the big miss was the way it was positioned, by me,
the way we positioned it as a microclip,
not having full context.
That's on me, right?
This is where every T and I has to be crossed
in my environment, these days,
because if I'm not contextualizing,
then it becomes a mass thing.
I mean, to be frank,
this point of view that Chris took
that you're saying in the email,
that why would I take people's money at a conference
that I don't, I don't believe that my
personal opinion on home buying to a small subset of America
has anything to do with what I should bring in value
to an audience at an event in a ticket price form, right?
To me, there's literally no connection.
I have empathy.
Look, here's what, this thought,
and I've read all the feedback
from all the real estate agents on private forums
using my accounts to back chatter.
This thought that I'm endangering people's livelihood
is the single greatest complement of my career.
- [Man On Phone] I mean, I
- That's laughable.
Like, I don't have
point zero zero zero zero zero zero zero zero one percent
influence on the masses on their home buying strategy.
And, so, go ahead.
- [Man On Phone] I think you definitely
have a great influence on people.
I think people take your opinion,
I mean you're definitely not a cult kinda guy.
But people kinda take your opinion and use it.
The one thing I wanna point out,
- Please, please.
- [Man On Phone] You said 200,000, I think that,
you know I'm not harping on that,
but that doesn't account for,
that counts for New York City and Miami and the big markets,
but not across America.
- You're right. - So.
- By the way, by the way, by the way, look,
to me, this is about a psychology,
and I was speaking about me, right?
So, if you're Sally in rural Iowa,
and you're putting down 20,000, right, on a $100,000 home,
and you've got my psychology, I'm fascinated,
based on the, back to your point,
it doesn't have to be that big of a down payment.
When the down payments are smaller,
the multipliers are smaller, too.
So her $100,000 home 10 years later,
I'm fascinated by what happens if she pays rent instead
and has that 16,000 to go to work.
That's all.
- [Man On Phone] Yeah, no,
and I'm not disagreeing with that,
and it's all scalable, obviously, based on the market.
You know, New York City, obviously,
the price of real estate investment,
especially on the commercial side,
- Yep.
- [Man On Phone] Has never shown a real down turn,
except with 2008, obviously.
- Yep, yep.
- [Man On Phone] In the same sense,
and I just didn't understand, and obviously you have to,
because you're so big and an advertiser,
that's a thing that you say might be taken out of context.
- And by the way, you'll appreciate this,
you'll appreciate this,
I don't think we did a good enough job.
So what, this is actually a change
that I've made on my team,
the clip I'm fine with
because my team's clipping and we're clipping,
we need to be a little bit more thoughtful,
we've had two incidence recently
where I'm saying one thing at one point
and then I'm wrapping my thought 17 minutes later,
and we have to be thoughtful.
On top of which, I post everything on every platform
except my daily podcast on Instagram,
where they take clip and they post it.
What we've been doing,
that I think really put me in a vulnerable spot
was they are naming that meme and they're hyperbolizing.
I'm looking at Jason right now,
he sent me a clip yesterday
where he said drug dealers are the best entrepreneurs.
He has this great clip, where I don't believe that.
But I believe drug dealers have entrepreneurial tendencies.
That is a massive difference.
I believe that a lot of entrepreneurial
on the offense 20 to 35 year olds
should not put down payments on homes,
use that capital to build wealth,
and the buy their home at 39, 42, 44
because I have a funny feeling
that home would look different
and won't take them out of the game of opportunity.
But, the way we clipped it was,
and the way they titled it is, and I don't even remember,
but I think it's something to the degree of,
do you know?
- [Male] I don't wanna buy a home.
- I don't wanna buy a home.
Well that's not bad.
- [Male] I'll never buy a home again or something.
- I'll never, none the less,
it could have easy said
no one should ever buy a home, right?
Because the team is copywriting and doing all these things,
so let me say this, because this is real life,
I'm the reason it was taken out of context.
I do not believe that the industry took me out of context,
and for that, I have to deal with the ramifications
that I'm dealing with right now.
I'm not in the business,
I don't have eight minutes for my family
or my top executives,
I'm on the phone with you right now.
- [Man On Phone] And I appreciate that.
- I don't, real quick, I don't say that to like,
for you to appreciate it,
I'm saying that I'm willing to pay the piper
when I know that I didn't put myself in the best position.
- [Man On Phone] Right and
- So I titled the clip
- [Male] This is one that was posted.
- Got it, not it wasn't.
It was a separate one, on Twitter.
The one that everybody got upset about
is not the one that's titled on your team account
as I'm pissed I bought a home.
The Twitter one has a different title, uh-hu.
More importantly, here's the biggest punchline.
I have no problem with being historically incorrect
that entrepreneurs should not put their money to use
and should put down it on a home,
'cause the home market explodes over the next 30 years.
My biggest problem is that people viewed it as
me trying to attack their livelihood
and somehow ripping them off by throwing a conference.
Do you know what I mean?
- [Man On Phone] To be honest, I didn't think that at all.
I was just confused.
- I respect that.
- [Man On Phone] Honestly, I just think it was bad timing.
I just think that like,
everybody was pumped up about Agent 2021.
- Of course.
(talking over each other)
But brother, brother, did you listen to my keynote?
I addressed, I said it in the keynote
that I don't think it's a good use of people's capital.
- [Man On Phone] Right, for an entrepreneur.
- That's right.
So what, you know, what I had
the luxury of contextualizing it.
So what's really interesting is
and others are using it for
what they need to use it for, right?
- [Man On Phone] Yeah, listen,
- Something, cool.
- [Man On Phone] You know, obviously something can be taken,
- And by the way, by the way, by the way, by the way,
it is the clip is literally titled,
"I'm pissed I own a home."
- [Man On Phone] Yeah, yeah, I know, I know.
- So but I mean, I think that's important,
because the manipulation of it for other people's agenda
for awareness or whatever they're trying to push,
is something that has to be taken into account.
That being said, if I believe that that's what happened,
I would never be on this call with you.
I believe that we clipped in a way,
and to be honest with you,
'cause I'm gonna go listen to the podcast this weekend,
I'm not sure if I did a good enough job
clarifying it in the entire 45 minutes
the way I'm doing it now in certain circumstances.
Where I'm historically able to put myself
in a precarious spot, is when I'm hyped on stage
or in an interview and I make an absolute statement
and don't add the little writing in the bottom,
and I have to understand that when those moments happen,
and boy am I trying to be better at it,
that I deserve to deal with the ramifications.
And you know, look, the craziest,
I mean there's so much going on.
I mean, we're moving our events business from
Vayner to Pure Wow and 137.
Like, I've got so many different things going on.
Like, do you know what the funniest part is?
I pretty much, like can't believe that I,
I have so much empathy anybody who's
upset or disappointed with me,
that all I want to do is be on as many
11 minute and 16 second calls as I can.
I'm not gonna be able to get all of the way there,
but I do really appreciate
the tone and the tenor of your email.
But I will say, in your email, where it says,
"Hey, taking advantage of people for the ticket"
and things of that nature,
I genuinely don't believe that's your feelings.
That's why I'm calling you.
- [Man On Phone] It's not.
It was in almost like a, almost rhetoric
on why would you do this
'cause this is not what you do, right?
- Yeah, you listen, your email was,
I couldn't believe in us more,
I guess is the best thing I can say.
I'm also fascinated by the ability
for people to take an opinion, that is a real opinion.
You know, there were people that said
I did it for controversy.
I was like
- [Man On Phone] That's ridiculous, man,
'cause you know what?
Those people are just trying to make a point
and they're angry or they're frustrated, or whatever.
They don't really know,
those are the people that are on the outside
and don't really know
that you don't do this shit for that reason.
- But there's a really interesting part, right?
Like, as you probably know
'cause it's out there quite a bit,
my sister's a real estate agent.
- [Man On Phone] Yep.
- You know, it was funny, I was talking to her,
this is now kind of, not that this has blown over,
but obviously four days ago,
this was much more white heat than it is today.
So I was just talking to her normal life, I guess.
Not on this issue.
And then it got brought up again yesterday.
And I said to her, I'm like,
"Sis, I really believe in this,
"you should really become educated on what high net worth,
"or people that actually do have money,
"what kind of homes they want to rent."
Like I don't think, I'm not saying this, I believe it.
I believe that there will be a lot of 25, 20,
I believe the amount of people who, in America,
normally would buy a home at 28,
who, instead are gonna buy a first home at 39,
that's four times the value and size
of the home they would have bought at 28,
is gonna be far greater.
I really genuinely believe that.
And I'm not saying that to hurt people's feelings
or put their livelihoods in.
It's because I believe it as a truth.
And I don't view real estate agents
viewing me attacking their livelihood,
I view it as, if you thoughtfully process it in your head,
and if you disagree with me, then you move on.
But if you think there's something to it,
maybe you add to your business capabilities.
- [Man On Phone] Right, and listen,
I'm a prime example, real quick.
So I decided after I sold my last house,
to rent and invest in a beverage company
(laughing over talking)
crushing it right now.
But that's my personal opinion.
My business opinion is that if it's done the right way,
home ownership will always be a great investment.
- Yes, but this is not a debate if it's a great investment,
it's a debate of, instead of looking backwards
of how it's been over the last 70 years,
taking into account what the 20 year olds
of America are thinking today.
- [Man On Phone] Absolutely, absolutely.
- And by the way, by the way, by the way, and you know,
and I think you need to ask yourself in the mirror
if that's what you've done,
is your business advice predicated on what's in your best,
financial vested interest?
Because one of the things that I will tell you
that I'm most proud of is when I shit on
television commercials and programmatic banner ads,
I'm losing tons of money.
If people were thoughtful,
truly thoughtful and non-emotional abut what I did,
they would understand the level of transparency.
I did not consider, nor will I ever consider
the timing of Agent 2021 or anything else,
because when I sell something, I say to myself,
"If somebody's gonna buy this bottle of wine, sneaker,
"ticket to a conference, or hire Vayner Media,
"are they getting the value
"that they're paying for for that?"
That's how I think about it.
But I'm speaking my truth, not what makes me the most money.
- [Man On Phone] No, listen, I get that,
and that's why what I put in the email is rhetoric,
'cause I know that's not what you did it for.
I just thought that it was taken out of context
and it wasn't centerfied on you
believing in your own opinions,
although you said, "I, I, I,"
I think it went from there to kids shouldn't go to college.
And it happened so fast
that you didn't really get a chance
to explain it in full tilt,
and it was taken out of context.
- And by the way, and by the way, that's on me.
Because guess what?
I had time now to create clarity
on my college point of view, right?
- Yep.
- That if you're an entrepreneur,
and if your parents aren't paying for it,
and you're gonna collect $150,000 in debt,
like hey, please pay attention.
You're gonna come out of the system.
By the way, do you know how many people,
instead of buying a home
and putting 33,000 or 330,000 on a home,
put it into a stock or put it into Bitcoin and it collapsed?
So, this is about self-awareness.
My biggest problem, or let me rephrase.
The thing that's driving me
is even a clarification within it, which is the following:
and you know this better than I do,
I've just been doing a lot of homework
for the last five years.
We have a culture where people
maximize their down payment on a home.
We live in a world where it is stunning to me
how many people almost liquidate
their entire bank account for that down payment.
- [Man On Phone] I agree with you.
- So to me, if you, here in a thoughtful discussion,
the amount of people that I wish,
if they had 200,000, right?
Instead of them buying a million dollar home,
buying a half a million dollar home,
so they can put a hundo down, and then on the other hundo,
do their side hustle
or some of the things that I'm passionate about.
If they're an entrepreneur,
if they think they, or a good investor,
or they think they can do other things with money.
The reality is, there's a lot of people
that should be doing that.
I'm an extreme entrepreneur.
I, there's a reason I don't have safe investments
in Wall Street, bonds, in real estate.
It's 'cause I want to be on the offensive.
It makes me happy.
Then there's people in the other way,
who will do nothing on offense.
But the reality is, you know this, it's funny,
my original seed for this is
people are putting themselves in such vulnerable spots,
'cause they're giving themselves no flexibility
'cause they're maximizing the down payment
to buy the biggest possible house they can buy.
- [Man On Phone] Which is retarded.
- And it's happening on an everyday basis.
- [Man On Phone] I know, and that's what the collapse is.
- And so what I think is,
I think the industry needs more conversations
that aren't the status quo.
Which is, I did a poor job
and didn't create enough context and clarity.
And so I'm gonna deal with the pain of that.
But, the industry as a whole
could use a whole lot more fuckin' thoughtful conversation.
- [Man On Phone] Yeah, well maybe
we'll do it on the Deep Dive.
- Maybe.
I can't wait to see you, bro.
I'm really glad I got to reach out.
I appreciate your time.
- [Man On Phone] And when you decide
to get into the real estate space,
just make sure you call me back.
- You got it brother.
Take care, alright, bye bye.
Let's post it.
Everybody, I recorded that
because I wanted to hit the metanature of my recording now,
so I was able to have that combo
and create some clarities on the lack of context.
And context is absolutely what I believe in,
and we've scaled very quickly, Andy.
And so, and by the way,
this is not even on the team, that's a cop out.
I'm positive when I listened to the podcast
on the NBA All Star, I just remember the mood I was in.
When I'm in that mood, showmanship,
I'm leaving a sentence or two out
that puts me in a vulnerable spot.
And that happens in a lot of areas.
And I've gotta be better.