Welcome to KnowThis Live. I'm Zinhle Essamuah. Joining me today is Roxane Gay:
professor, social commentator, and author of multiple works,
including Bad Feminist. Thank you for being here today.
Thank you for having me.
You're teaching a MasterClass this year called consuming and criticizing
culture, writing about trauma and the business of representation.
Why is representation needed?
What does that practically look like that work today?
Well, you know,
people tend to dismiss representation as unimportant, but it's actually not,
and it's not as trite as people wanting to see people who look like them.
It's about the range of perspectives that come from people who inhabit different
identities and what I'm going to think of to teach
in a class versus what you are going to think of versus what Pedro the producer
is going to think of is all different, but equally valuable.
And so when we have diverse and equitable representation,
we make sure that people are learning as much as possible and are being exposed
to a broad range of thinking so that they can develop their own perspectives.
And I think that's incredibly important.
We clearly are living in a time when there are so many diverse perspectives.
And we've also heard about this emergence of cancel culture, right?
And I'm mindful that your course in part is talking about consuming and
criticizing culture.
So what does it look like to shape culture without necessarily canceling it?
Or do you believe that that's necessary?
I don't believe cancel culture exists.
I think that people get obsessed with this idea,
when it's actually consequence culture where when you make grave mistakes,
there are consequences for them.
Does it mean that you can never participate in public life? No. Uh,
but it does mean you have to account for your actions.
And unfortunately we actually don't even see much of that.
And the people who have supposedly been canceled are working,
they're making money. They're mostly still millionaires.
And so one of the things that I try to focus on when I talk about how do we
critique culture is making sure that we are
understanding exactly what's at play media literacy,
cultural literacy are incredibly important things.
And so we need to give people the ability to understand the context
that informs why a television show makes the decisions it does,
why reality TV focuses on what it does, uh,
why comedians like to push the envelope and things like that. And then,
you know, when we are making our critiques,
it's really important to do so with an understanding of that context.
And it's never about cancellation, frankly,
critique makes art better and it creates a robust discourse.
Now, as a writer,
I get critiqued all the time and I feel some kind of way about it.
But when I get over my feelings,
I actually do sit with the criticism and I take what will be useful.
And I leave what won't.
And if we look at criticism as a healthy thing,
I think we can move beyond the reductionist discussions about cancel
culture,
because that just keeps us from actually talking about the issues at hand.
And I appreciate that you say writing is meant also to give us context.
And you've talked about how writing historically and presently shapes public
opinion. What is your hope with your, whether recent or past writings?
What impact do you intend for that to have?
I try not to dictate what impact I want my work to have,
but I do want it to reach people. And I do want people to see merit in my ideas.
I do want people to be open,
to changing their minds if they disagree with what I have to say,
and I want them to feel like my work is fair to their points of view.
And that's really all I can ask for and else, you know,
I hope that I write a beautiful sentence.
Indeed.
And I know many of your writings have also centered on trauma and your personal
experiences of that.
What advice do you have to women thinking through how to speak
about express, navigate their own traumas?
Uh,
the key thing I tell women or any underrepresented person is not to
cannibalize yourself and not to think that your story is the only thing you have
to offer public discourse. So you may have experienced a trauma,
but you are not obligated to write about it.
And that is not the only thing that you're allowed to be expert on.
And I wish that more women, more people of color, more trans people,
more people.
I wish we all understood that a little better because early in your career,
people will let you believe that all you are is the worst day of your life.
And that's not the case.
And you've said before and pose the question,
how do we write about the traumatic experiences of others without transgressing
their boundaries or privacy?
I'm mindful of that as a member of the media myself. So how do we do that?
And I think specifically when we're talking about the stories of women who face
just unique and in many ways, insurmountable challenges.
I think it's really important not to co-opt people's stories.
You can write about people's experiences,
but you have to make sure you're protecting their privacy.
You have to make sure you are having at least a sense of what their boundaries
might be in terms of the level of detail you might be including about their
experience. And I think in the best of all worlds,
you should have their permission. Now for doing reportage on war torn countries,
for example,
there's no way you can go and get permission from each and every Iraqi,
for example, or each and every Syrian.
But I do think that you can have a code of ethics
in terms of how you do that writing and make sure that you're not doing it in an
exploitative way. And again, thinking about nuance and recognizing that
the trauma and the trauma, the traumatized people you're writing about,
they are more than just that truama. They have whole lives beyond that trauma.
And it's important to acknowledge that in our work.
And what do you personally do to continually heal yourself?
I know you've spoken a bit about that in the past,
but what keeps you grounded and what keeps you going when you do spend so much
time embedded in this difficult content?
Oh, therapy,
I go to therapy and I have a great support system at home.
I have a good family and a great wife,
and I allow myself to step away from the work and
enjoy the really great things in life.
Sometimes when you write about gender,
racial equality, sexual violence, and the like,
you start to think that the world is a hopeless place and there are legitimate
reasons for thinking that way.
But I always try to like remind myself that there is a lot of beauty and joy in
the world and that I am very privileged and I,
um, should recognize that. And I do.
And I know that often, um,
when individuals or thought leaders like yourself share their experiences,
there tend to be a lot of solidarity that comes around at times.
You've spoken about, uh, after you published hunger, a memoir about your body,
which I understand is also going to become a film and TV adaptation.
So congratulations on that. Um, yeah. Uh,
what impact did that solidarity have on you?
Were you expecting it and how does it feel?
I was expecting that other fat people would relate to what I wrote in Hunger,
but it has resonated with people well beyond that.
And it has- that has really surprised me.
The reality is that everyone lives in a body and living in a body is challenging
for any number of reasons.
And it really forced me to look at the chip on my shoulder and knock it
off a little bit and, uh,
make myself open to these people who were relating to my work,
who I would have assumed would want nothing to do with it.
And so it's been a really interesting journey to see
where the book has gone and how it has reached people.
And of course, we're speaking in 2021, this has been, I think,
a period of intense trauma for everyone. Uh,
whether it be the pandemic renewed racial reckoning,
I think the list goes on and on and on.
So why is it important for people and audiences and readers to look
back at trauma in order to heal?
It seems that a lot of your work does just that.
I think before a wound can heal,
you have to acknowledge that it's there and you have to acknowledge the depth of
it. And when we tend to ignore things, when we tend to gloss over them,
it makes it possible for history to repeat itself.
And we certainly have seen that over the past four years with Donald Trump as
president,
we saw him engaging in a lot of political behaviors that we would have thought
were eradicated with previous generations. And they were not. I mean, fascism,
uh, insurrection, uh, children in cages, uh,
the retrenchment of re- reproductive freedom, uh,
the ban on transgender people in the military,
it's such a long list of things that he did. Um,
and I think it's partly because we did not do enough to talk about the traumas
of bigotry before that, uh,
enough and in ways that would relate to not only people who
are progressive or liberal,
but to people who are conservative and who think
that that conservatism is more important than human dignity.
Yeah. And I want to wrap by asking,
I know that you obviously are such a well-known author.
Is there anything that you haven't touched yet, a topic, an issue,
a story of your own that you're thinking about that we haven't heard?
Well, I mean, there's, I have plenty of stories left, but they're not about me.
I'm, I'm, I'm actually done writing about myself.
I don't have anything else to say on that subject,
but I am looking forward to, uh, writing some,
I'm doing an essay collection of cultural criticism and a writing advice book
and a YA novel. And I'm really excited about these projects that are not so me,
me, me, because I've got the range.
Well, Roxane, we appreciate your time and you sharing your expertise with us.
Oh, thank you. It's been great. I appreciate the great questions.
Yes. And I appreciate the great answers.
And thank you to everyone for joining us for this episode of KnowThis LIve,
I'm Zinhle Essamuah.