JOSS WHEDON AND HIS WIFE ARE UNFORTUNATELY DIVORCING AFTER 16
YEARS OF MARRIAGE.
THAT IS NOT SOMETHING WE USUALLY TALK ABOUT ON THE SHOW, BUT THE
ISSUE OF FEMINISM CAME UP, BECAUSE WHEDON HAS GOTTEN A LOT
OF ATTENTION FOR HIS ROLE, WHAT HE CLAIMS TO BE A MALE FEMINIST.
THE QUESTION HERE IS, IS SOMEWHAT ABLE TO BE A QUOTE
UNQUOTE FEMINIST IF HE IS MISTREATING THE WOMAN IN
HIS LIFE?
SO, KAI COLE WROTE THIS PIECE IN THE OP-ED, AND THEN WE CAN
HAVE A LITTLE BIT OF DISCUSSION.
SHE WRITES, "15 YEARS LATER, WHEN HE WAS DONE WITH OUR
MARRIAGE AND FINALLY READY TO TELL THE TRUTH, HE WROTE
ME, WHEN I WAS RUNNING BUFFY, I WAS SURROUNDED BY
BEAUTIFUL, NEEDY, AGGRESSIVE YOUNG WOMEN.
IF ELLA HAD A DISEASE, THE GREEK MYTH.
SUDDENLY I'M A POWERFUL PRODUCER AND THE WORLD IS LAID OUT
AT MY FEET AND I CAN'T TOUCH IT.
BUT HE DID TOUCH IT."
SO, LET ME GIVE YOU LITTLE BIT MORE.
SHE WRITES, "WHEN HE WALKED OUT OF OUR MARRIAGE, AND WAS TRYING
TO MAKE THINGS SEEM LESS BEWILDERING TO HELP ME
UNDERSTAND HOW HE COULD'VE LIKED ME FOR SO LONG, HE SAID, IN MANY
WAYS, I WAS THE HEIGHT OF NORMAL IN THIS CULTURE.
WE'RE TAUGHT TO BE PROVIDERS AND COMPANIONS AT THE SAME TIME, TO
CONQUER AND ACQUIRE ñ SPECIFICALLY SEXUALLY ñ AND I
WAS PULLING OFF BOTH!"
ALL RIGHT, LET'S OPEN UP THIS DISCUSSION.
OKAY, SO THIS IS A SUPER UNCOUNTABLE DISCUSSION TO HAVE.
ABSOLUTELY.
FIRST OF ALL, IT'S ABOUT THEIR PERSONAL LIVES, AND IN A SENSE I
WISH WE WERE DISCUSSING IT AT ALL, BECAUSE IT'S BETWEEN THEM,
AND HER BEING SUPER MAD AT HIM AFTER 15 YEARS OF CHEATING ON
HER IS, YOU KNOW, SIMPLY UNDERSTANDABLE.
HE PUT OUT A VERY BRIEF STATEMENT SAYING THAT SOME
OF THE COMMENTS IN HER EDITORIAL OR MISLEADING, BUT HE
WANTED TO LEAVE IT AT THAT FOR THE SAKE OF THE KIDS AND
EVERYONE ELSE, WHICH IS UNDERSTANDABLE.
SO, YOU TAKE ANYTHING THAT ANYONE SAYS IN A DIVORCE
WITH A GRAIN OF SALT, ON BOTH SIDES, BECAUSE I'VE SEEN
PEOPLE SAY TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE THINGS, AND SOMETIMES THEY
AREN'T EXACTLY RIGHT WHEN THEY SAY THEM.
THE REASON TO HAVE THE DISCUSSION IS BECAUSE IT'S AN
IMPORTANT ISSUE: CAN YOU STILL BE FEMINIST IF YOU ARE
CHEATING ON YOUR WIFE?
AS AN EXAMPLE, AND I THINK THE ANSWER IS YES, AND I THINK THAT
-
SHE SAYS SHE'S THE LAST KIND OF PERSON TO MAKE THIS PUBLIC, BUT
SHE FELT SHE NEEDED TO.
WELL, I DON'T KNOW.
I KNOW WHY YOU THOUGHT YOU NEEDED TO, WHETHER YOU
ACTUALLY NEEDED TO IS A DIFFERENT QUESTION.
AND I'M TRYING DESPERATELY NOT TO JUDGE THEM AS PEOPLE, AS TO
WHETHER SHE SHOULD HAVE PUT THIS EDITORIAL OR NOT, HE SHOULD
HAVE CHEATED ON HER OR NOT.
YEAH, WELL, I MEAN ñ
MY INCLINATION IS THAT NEITHER ONE OF THEM SHOULD HAVE
DONE THAT, BUT THAT'S NOT IMPORTANT.
I REALLY WANT TO GET INTO THAT.
SHE MADE THE DECISION TO WRITE THE PIECE, IT IS WHAT IT
IS; HE ALLEGEDLY CHEATED ON HER, AND I DON'T EVEN WANT TO
GET INTO THE DETAILS OF THAT.
I DON'T CARE, AND I DON'T THINK IT SHOULD BE SOMETHING THAT
PEOPLE GET INVOLVED IN AND START JUDGING PEOPLE FOR, BUT I DO
THINK ñ IT IS AN INTERESTING QUESTION AS TO WHETHER SOMEONE
CAN BE CONSIDERED A SO-CALLED FEMINIST IF HE IS CHEATING ON
HIS WIFE, AND SO ñ LOOK, IT'S A TOUGH QUESTION, BECAUSE SHE
OUTLINES SOME OF THE EMOTIONAL TRAUMA SHE SUFFERED AS A
RESULT OF THIS, AND SO, IT SEEMS LIKE IT WOULD BE IMPOSSIBLE
FOR SOMEONE TO BE A FEMINIST IF THEY ARE MISTREATING A WOMAN,
BUT THE SAME TIME, HERE'S THE THING, INFIDELITY IS ONE OF THE
TOP REASONS WHY PEOPLE DIVORCE GOT IT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME,
AND IT HAPPENS AMONG AVERAGE PEOPLE IN AVERAGE RELATIONSHIPS.
THIS IS A CELEBRITY, SOMEONE WHO IS CLOSELY CONNECTED TO THE
ENTERTAINMENT WORLD, AND HE IS A MAN WHO HAS POWER, SO OF COURSE
THERE ARE GOING TO BE PEOPLE WHO ARE THROWING THEMSELVES AT HIM,
AND I THINK MOST ñ EPIC A LOT OF MEN IN THOSE CIRCUMSTANCES, AT
SOME POINT MIGHT MAKE THE MISTAKE OF CHEATING, AND SO I
DON'T WANT TO GO OVERBOARD AND JUDGE HIM, WHATEVER, BUT
THE REALITY IS, YEAH, PEOPLE CHEAT.
THE IDEA OF MONOGAMY IS A GREAT IDEA, BUT ARE WE AS HUMANS BUILT
TO BE MONOGAMOUS FOR THE REST OF OUR LIVES WITH THE SAME PERSON?
SO I DON'T THINK HIS FEMINISM IS NECESSARILY CLOSELY TIED TO HIS
RELATIONSHIP; I THINK YOU CAN BE A FEMINIST AND MESS UP TIME
TO TIME, AND I THINK HE MESSED UP PRETTY ROYALLY, BUT I
DON'T WANT TO SAY THAT LIKE, ANYTHING THAT HE HAS DONE
IN FIGHTING FOR GENDER EQUALITY IS NOW OUT THE DOOR BECAUSE
OF THE FACT THAT HE CHEATED.
I THINK THERE ARE TWO ISSUES HERE: ONE AS WELL FEMINISM AND
MONOGAMY, AND ANOTHER IS ABOUT HOW WE JUDGE PEOPLE AS A
WHOLE IN SOCIETY.
I'M WITH YOU, ANA, MONOGAMY IS A HELL OF A THIN, AND I FEEL
REALLY LUCKY, AND OF GREAT PEACE OF MIND THAT I HAVE NOT CHEATED
ON MY WIFE, SO I DON'T HAVE TO STRESS, NOR HAVE I PUT STRESS ON
HER, OF HAVING TO TOLD LIE AFTER LIE AFTER LIE, AND FOR 15 YEARS
FIGURED OUT, WAS I SUPPOSED TO SAY THIS OR THAT, ETC.,
BUT I DON'T JUDGE OTHER PEOPLE FOR IT.
ARE YOU GUYS SURE THAT WE ARE ALL MEANT TO BE MONOGAMOUS?
ARE YOU SURE ABOUT THAT?
AND SO FOR ME, THAT TRANSGRESSION, I'M NOT
TRYING TO DOWNPLAY IT BECAUSE IT INVOLVES HEARTBREAK, AND A
TON OF EMOTIONS, RIGHTFULLY SO, AND DECEIT, BUT IT IS ONE
OF THE MOST COMMON HUMAN FOIBLES THERE IS.
I DON'T THINK YOU TAKE AWAY ANYTHING ELSE THAT A PERSON HAS
EVER WORKED FOR BASED ON THAT.
MY ABSOLUTE ROLE MODEL WAS MARTIN LUTHER KING; THERE'S
A GOOD AMOUNT OF EVIDENCE THAT HE WAS NOT MONOGAMOUS, SO
SHOULD HE NOT GET CREDIT FOR THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT?
THAT'S INSANE.
THERE IS EVIDENCE THAT FDR WAS NOT MONOGAMOUS, SHOULD HE
NOT BE GIVEN CREDIT FOR LIFTING OFF THOUSANDS OF AMERICANS?
THAT'S INSANE.
I'M NOT MAKING EXCUSES FOR WHAT HAPPENED, BUT I WILL SAY THAT IF
WE JUDGED PEOPLE BASED ON THEIR WORST ACTIONS, AND THEN USE
THAT AS OUR OUTLOOK ON THEM, THEN NO ONE IS GOING TO
HAVE A POSITIVE REPUTATION.
EVERYONE HAS THEIR NEGATIVE MOMENTS; MOMENT THAT THEY ARE
EMBARRASSED BY OR HUMILIATED ABOUT.
BUT THE ONE THING THAT I DO WANT TO CALL THEM OUT ON, IF IT'S
TRUE ñ BECAUSE REMEMBER, THIS IS HER PERSPECTIVE, AND HER SIDE.
REMEMBER, THE ONLY THING HE SAID WAS THAT THERE ARE A FEW
INACCURACIES BUT HE WASN'T GOING TO RESPOND TO IT OUT OF RESPECT.
BUT THE ONE THING SHE ACCUSES HIM OF HIS BLAMING HIS
INFIDELITY ON THE PATRIARCHY.
BASICALLY SAYING THAT SOCIETY HAS ALWAYS PETITIONS OF
MEN, AND BECAUSE OF THE EXPECTATIONS, HE FALTERED.
IF HE REALLY MADE THOSE EXCUSES, COME ON.
REALLY?
YOU ARE GOING TO BLAME THE PATRIARCHY ON THAT?
NO NO, I'M ONE THOUSAND PERCENT WITH ANA ON THAT.
LEAVE IT ALONE.
PEOPLE SAY TERRIBLE THINGS IN DIVORCES, BUT IF HE SAID
THAT, THAT'S A PREPOSTEROUS STATEMENT.
NO, YOU DIDN'T BECAUSE YOU WERE HORNY.
DON'T GIVE ME THIS CRAP ABOUT THE PATRIARCHY AND EXPECTATIONS.
SO, THERE MAYBE I'M NOT AS LIBERAL OR PROGRESSIVE AS OTHER
FOLKS WHO ARE LIKE, THE PATRIARCHY SECTOR SOCIETY ñ TO
SOME DEGREE IT DOES, NO QUESTION ABOUT THAT, AND SO DOES OUR
GENETICS, AND OUR GENETICS ARE NOT PERFECTLY MONOGAMOUS.
YOU HAVE TO GET INTO THE PATRIARCHY TO EXCUSE YOUR
ADULTERY, THAT'S CRAZYÖ AND THEN ON THE SECOND PART, ABOUT HOW
MUCH SHOULD WE JUDGE PEOPLE, BECAUSE SHE IS SAYING THAT HE
SHOULD GET AWARDS ANYMORE FOR FEMINISM, OR ANYTHING.
BUT HE DID DO THOSE THINGS, HE DID THOSE POSITIVE THINGS, AND
HE PUT OUT POSITIVE IMAGES IN THE MEDIA, AND SO, NO, I
MEAN LOOK, THERE ARE LINES.
SO, ROMAN POLANSKI: RAPE, UNDERAGE GIRL, RAN FROM THE
LAW, ETC.
YOU DON'T WANT TO GIVE ROMAN POLANSKI AWARDS, I GET IT.
I WANT TO PROSECUTE ROMAN POLANSKI.
THAT'S RIGHT, THE MAIN THING I WANTED WAS BUSTED HIM AND
THEN WE CAN FIGURE OUT HIS WORDS LATER, WHEN HE'S IN PRISON.
BUT IF WE KEEP GOING DOWN THAT LATTER, AND WE SAY, TAKE AWAY
AWARDS FOR THIS, OR THAT PERSON SHOULDN'T GET RECOGNIZED FOR THE
GOOD WORDS THAT HE DID BECAUSE OF XYZ, WE ARE ALL GOING TO
GET ELIMINATED.
ABSOLUTELY.
THINK ABOUT YOU WHAT YOUR WORST, AND HAVING THE ENTIRE WORLD
KNOW ABOUT THAT, AND HAVING THAT BE WHAT PEOPLE USED TO
JUDGE YOUR ENTIRE CHARACTER.
IT'S UNFAIR, WE ARE ALL INCREDIBLY FLAWED.
MYSELF INCLUDED.
YOU'RE FLAWED - YOU'RE SUPER FLAWED.
MARRIAGES ARE HARD, I FEEL TERRIBLY FOR HER BECAUSE I
CAN IMAGINE BEING IN A SITUATION LIKE THAT AND FEELING
PRETTY HEARTBROKEN BY IT, BUT AGAIN, YOU AND YOUR WORST
IS NOT REPRESENTATIVE OF WHO YOU ARE AS A PERSON.
AND, LOOK, I DON'T WANT ANYONE TO MISTAKE WHAT I'M SAYING,
BECAUSE I AM HEARTBROKEN FOR HER, IT'S THE SAME THING THAT I
CRITICIZE BILL CLINTON FOR.
HE SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN IMPEACHED, BUT THE LIES THAT HE
MADE UP, IN ONE CASE IT ATTACKED THE WOMEN HE HAD SLEPT
WITH, PREVENTING THEY ARE CRAZY, BUT WHEN YOU CONTINUE TO
LIVE FOR ALL THOSE YEARS TO YOUR SPOUSE, IT MAKES HER FEEL
LIKE SHE IS THE CRAZY ONE.
YEAH.
WHEN IN REALITY SHE WAS RIGHT ALL ALONG.
SO I'M NOT MINIMIZING THE PAIN OF THAT, SAYING THAT IF WE GET
INTO THAT, THEN THERE'S NO GETTING OUT, BECAUSE WE ARE ALL
HUMAN, AND I LIKE THE NEW SUPERHERO TITLE THAT ANA GAVE
ME: I'M SUPER FLAWED!
I GAVE YOU A SUPER BENIGN EXAMPLE.
IF ALL YOU EVER SAW OF ME ñ LUCKILY NO ONE EVER TAKES THIS ñ
WAS AN ARGUMENT THAT STEVE OH AND I HAD ON A BASKETBALL
COURT, WHERE WE WERE SO LOUD THAT THE POLICE HAD TO
COME, YOU WOULD THINK THAT GUY IS TOTALLY MENTAL.
BUT I LIKE TO THINK THAT IS A TINY PERCENTAGE OF MY LIFE
AND MY CHARACTER OVERALL.
IT'S THE OLDEST THING IN THE BOOK, WE ALL LIVE IN GLASS
HOUSES, SELECT BE A LITTLE BIT CAREFUL WHEN WE THROW THOSE
STONES.