- Hi everyone.
Welcome to the daily homeroom live stream,
Sal here from Khan Academy.
For those of you all who are new to this,
this is a live stream that we've been doing every day
since we've had these global school closures.
Just as a way to stay connected.
Obviously Khan Academy, our whole team,
we were trying to pull out resources,
starting in early learning with Khan Academy kids
all the way through elementary, middle and high school
and even early college to keep you learning.
But we also want to provide more support.
So we've been running paired webinars, teacher webinars,
this homeroom live stream, where we're going to have
really interesting guests including,
today I'm especially excited about.
But I do want to give my a standard announcement
reminding folks that we are not for profit.
We only can exist because of philanthropic donations.
We were running at a deficit even before COVID hit.
And now with COVID, we're seeing our traffic,
three X of what it typically is.
We are trying to do more programs
and ways to support you.
So if you're in a position to do so,
please think about donating.
I want to give special thanks to several corporations
that have stepped up really in record time
to support this effort.
Bank of America, that first weekend when they saw
that we needed, they stepped up to help us out.
Google.org, AT&T, Fastly and Novartis, thank all of them.
And even with their significant support,
we still need more help.
So if you represent a corporation, please talk to us.
And if you're just an individual donor,
that still makes a huge, huge, huge difference,
for our ability to serve tens of millions of folks
around the world.
So with that, I am super excited to introduce our guest,
Angela Duckworth.
In certain circles, she is a mega star, I would say.
I've known Angela, for many years.
I think we ran into each other at a conference in Canada.
This was like eight, nine, or 10 years ago,
eight or nine years ago.
But, then I, even then I knew Angela was on onto something
and since then I think her notoriety has just exploded
because the things she talks about are so relevant
to education, I think, especially relevant
to the time that we're dealing with right now.
So, Angela, thank you for joining us.
- Thank you Sal, and I'm going to tell you a secret.
You didn't just run into me.
I actually flew to Canada because I knew
someone had told me that you were going to be
and I ran into you but not by accident.
So I was stalking you.
- We see, this is how the tables have turned
because now I kind of stalk you.
(laughing)
- You just email me.
It's a lot easier for you,
you didn't have to like fly to Canada.
- Exactly. I didn't.
So I'm glad that we are mutually stalking each other.
And I'm going to start off the conversation,
but I do want to encourage everyone who's watching
on YouTube and Facebook, put questions in there for Angela,
and you're going to learn a lot more about
her areas of expertise if you don't already know of them.
But I will start, Angela, you're known,
you're one of really a handful of, I would say, pioneers
or leaders in this field of mindset research.
And you're really known for grit.
Defining it in more precise terms.
So just, you know, explain what mindset research is
and your view on it, especially relative to grit.
- The term mindset has caught on.
I have to think that it's gotta be almost the,
maybe the most commonly understood new scientific discovery
in psychology and among non psychologists, right?
Among parents and kids and educators.
So what is mindset?
You know, mindsets are beliefs that you have about the world
or about human nature that drive so much of your behavior.
They may not be beliefs that you think about actively,
but they're very powerful.
And in particular Carol Dweck at Stanford,
our common friend and really my hero,
she's worked her whole life on something called
growth mindset.
Your beliefs about your intelligence.
And you can either have a growth mindset,
which is you know, the belief that intelligence
is malleable, that your abilities can change,
or you can have a fixed mindset, which is the belief
that they can't change that you know, you are who you are,
who you are.
You're either a math person or not,
you're a natural athlete or not.
And in my research on grit,
which is passionate and persevering effort
towards longterm goals, I find, and I think
our early work with Carol, but in subsequent studies also,
kids who have a growth mindset about intelligence
tend to become grittier.
And then those increases in grit tend to lead
to increases in growth mindset.
So there's a kind of virtuous cycle,
when a kid really believes that their abilities can change,
they're more likely to persevere, to try hard at things,
which then reinforces that belief.
- And just to make sure I understand these,
because I often say these in the same sentence
and they are very closely related to growth mindset is,
I believe that I can do more, I just have to
step out of my comfort zone and apply myself.
And if I fail at something, it's not a judgment
on some type of innate ability.
It's if it's a moment to learn from.
While grit is that ability to stick to it.
- Yeah, I would say grit, I mean grit is a behavior,
grit is like doing it right?
And mindset might be why you're doing it, right?
So mindset is like the underlying belief
that would motivate a certain pattern of behavior
that I would describe as grit.
And let me just say, because you know,
my kids are still teenagers and you know,
I'm sure a lot of people have kids who are
even younger than, than ours.
I think that it's not just, when I think of grit,
I don't think just of like working hard.
It's also loving what you do.
It's also being intrinsically motivated
over long periods of time.
So, that's just a part of grit that I hope, you know,
we can talk about in this conversation
because I don't want parents to get the message that like
the only thing kids need to do is develop a work ethic.
They also have developed interests, loves, passions.
- [Sal] Yeah, and that's, I think, a good segue.
I mean, you know, you're a professor of psychology
at University of Pennsylvania.
You've been doing research for a while.
You have a bestselling book named, not a surprise, Grit.
(laughing)
- Yeah. No imagination there in the title.
- No, it's the power of passion and perseverance.
I think, you know, a question that
a lot of parents are asking.
My wife asked me to ask you this when she saw that
I was walking into the walk-in closet
to interview you right now.
And it's a question that has been coming up
throughout the school closures,
is that there's a lot of resources out there.
There's Khan Academy, we've put out daily schedules.
But what is tangible advice for parents,
teachers, or students for themselves to have that grit?
To be able to act on that growth mindset, so to speak?
- So I think that, not only for grit but for
lots of other things that we would love our kids to develop
as they grow older, the combination of
challenge and support is magical.
And, if you ask the question like,
what are good parents, right?
Like what does the science of parenting say?
There's now decades of research on parenting styles
and the style of parenting that is the best, really.
I mean, I can just say that flat out like it's the best.
Your kids will be happier,
they'll be more socially adjusted,
but they'll also be more accomplished.
Like it's this combination of being very supportive
but also being demanding.
So you could say it's tough love.
Now why do I bring that up now
in the middle of the COVID crisis?
Because kids are being challenged.
So their challenges have been, I think in all cases
and in many different ways raised, right?
Now the question is like, how as parents can you meet that
with increased support?
Not trivial because we're under our own stress, et cetera.
But if you ask the question to me,
like where does psychological growth come from?
It comes from this combination of like,
I'm being asked to do something I can't yet do,
but there's a floor beneath me, there's a foundation,
there's unconditional support, there is Khan Academy there,
you know, there are people who will help me, you know,
like make a schedule so I can go on Khan Academy.
So I think parents can respond to this crisis
by in some ways, thinking of it as an opportunity
for their kids to develop these qualities.
I call them character strengths,
but you can call them SEL skills,
you can call them anything you want.
And I really do think it's not too Pollyanna
to say that it is an opportunity to do all those things.
- And what would you, I mean, one,
it's impressive that there is, I mean,
people have done the research and they've been able
to categorize different styles and this,
what you're describing seems to be the winning style on,
and I'm personally insecure to see how well I'm,
I don't know what audits--
- Give you a quiz.
- Give me a quiz or watch our family.
But what either from your or just as a parent
that you see good practice, I know y'all have done
a lot of research on interventions
that can help change people's mindsets.
So I mean, one, I'd love to hear about that research
and then are there things, let's say hypothetically
you were to have a five and a half year old at home
or an eight year old.
- For example.
- For example, I don't know.
Some people I know.
And you know, they sometimes do their work
but they're maybe just doing the minimum
or sometimes they don't even want to do that
because they feel like there's a little
less accountability now.
What does the research tell us and what advice
would you have for this hypothetical person that I know?
- Yeah. Well you know, I have a non hypothetical
17 and non hypothetical 18 year old,
but you know, long hypothetical five and a half year old
it sounds like on your end.
So I think one of the challenges of parenting
is to always be titrating to where your kids are.
Because when I said that you need to be,
and I do believe this, like you need to be
a demanding parent.
I don't think kids, I mean, kids need parents,
like they need us to ask them to do things
that they can't yet or wouldn't on their own do.
But the titration part is, you know, how much is a stretch
for your kid at this particular moment in time
and also at this stage in their development?
It may not be the same as it is
even for another kid in the same family.
So the titration is how to have your kids,
you know, be challenged but not too much.
And so for example, you know, when parents have
a idealistic goal of like their kids waking up,
making a schedule for the day, sticking to the schedule,
you know, if you start with a really unrealistic goal,
and you ask your kid to get there, you know,
immediately then everybody just gets discouraged
and frustrated.
So one piece of parenting advice is to take stock
of where your kids are and then try to move like 10%. Right?
As opposed to like a hundred percent,
towards something that you think is better.
And in general I find that even adults procrastinate
and don't do well when they fail to break down big goals
into smaller parts and then, you know,
make a more reasonable schedule about, you know,
how they're going to accomplish, you know, go down the list.
- That's good advice.
Not just for our parenting.
I mean, just while you were saying that,
I'm just, I'm thinking about some of the things
that my wife and I have attempted to do,
especially with some of our younger kids
and I was like, yeah, maybe if we just broke that down
a little bit more or just expected the first step of that.
And then once--
- I mean, Sal, this is what you do so well.
Like, by the way, I mean, I will just say
you have taught my kids since, you know,
as you do so many kids around the world.
And you may not have known, but the reason I flew to Canada
to stalk you was because my kids were spending
so much time learning from you on Khan Academy.
And I just got really interested in, you know,
how psychologists like me and might learn something from you
and be helpful.
And I think what you do so well Sal,
is you break things down into like parts.
So that like you can swallow it kind of like
a teaspoon at a time.
And I think kids need our help as parents to help them,
you know, do that.
And I sometimes feel like, you know,
parents might have unrealistic expectations about,
you know, like how much progress they can expect their kid
to make when it comes to self regulation
or time management or discipline.
And it helps to remember that the great teachers
know to break things down.
- No, well, I think you're, you're being very flattering.
But, I think the point is right.
And I think as parents, as much as we try to be centered,
we can also sometimes feel an urgency.
Like, wait, I heard someone else's kid has, you know,
has their whole schedule, is doing everything perfectly
and you're probably doing the wrong thing to your kid
and you're trying to get them from zero to that
and that other child probably isn't doing that.
There's probably a little bit of marketing involved there.
- I think we probably all have stories of, you know,
childhood in my family,
it was always these like cousins that I have in Boston who,
you know, were seemingly perfect.
And actually now that I'm all grown up,
I realized they were pretty much perfect
and they all became, you know, like Harvard professors.
But I don't think that--
- I'm afraid, if you're the non-perfect one in the family,
who knows what they're doing?
- Oh, I think I'm the black sheep.
But yes, there's a very distinguished branch of our family,
but I'm not in it.
So, you know, why do parents make those comparisons?
I think they're just, you know, they're kind of just
what come to mind for the parent because they, they are,
you know, like, "Oh, that's the mental model
"I have in my head, so I'll just share it with you."
But I don't think kids benefit very much
from those kinds of comparisons.
And in general in schooling, I think,
and I'm thinking, I know you have a global audience,
but I'm thinking about the American schooling system.
You know, it's a very kind of rank order.
Like how are you relative to these other like 900 kids
who are your age?
And those kinds of comparisons,
like am I as smart as her, am I smarter than him?
I don't think they're super beneficial most of the time.
I think kids actually benefit from make
a different kind of comparison, which is how am I
compared to how I want to be compared to how I was. Right?
And that's a comparison that you can do something with.
And that's a comparison that you know,
doesn't diminish another person by yourself making progress.
And you know, when I think about Khan Academy
and your whole philosophy is, you know,
you have a book too, which I read and you know,
your whole philosophy of like how education ought to work.
I really do think it's, you know, it's you with you
and like how far you can go and not you and your cousins
in Boston or you and you know, the 899 kids
who are also in your graduating class.
- And I mean with that thought,
there's a ton of questions coming in.
I want to get to those questions,
but I'll ask one of my last indulgent Sal questions,
which is, you talked a lot of research that
you can change people's mindsets.
I mean, tell us a little bit about some of the research
that will give all of us a growth mindset about
changing our kids' mindset about grit.
- Well, I'll tell you about a big study
that was run recently and published in Nature.
It was a huge scientific team led by David Yeager
at UT Austin and also, of course, Carol Dweck was involved.
I was just one among many team members.
But what it was, was an experiment to see
whether we could increase growth mindset
in ninth graders all over the United States.
And the experiment was a success.
And if you ask the question like what did you do?
How did you increase growth mindset?
There were these brief really, just, you know, minutes long,
activities where students A, learned that lots of other kids
around their age, you know, also sometimes feel stupid
when they get something wrong and they can kind of slip into
a like, "Oh, I'll never learn this," mode.
But then they learned about the neuroscience
that's actually true, that the brain is plastic,
that there is tremendous growth.
And when you do struggle and you make a mistake
and you look at it again, that your brain actually changes.
So for me, when I think about this,
one of the reasons why intelligence is a hard thing
to get kids to understand like that it is malleable,
is because it's invisible.
It's like it's in your, you know, you can't see your brain.
Right? Whereas if you said to a kid like,
"Do you think if you lifted all these weights,
"you know, your biceps would get bigger?"
They would say like, "Of course."
But intelligence is kind of behind you know,
the forehead so you don't see it.
Anyway, ninth graders learned about the modern neuroscience
of brain plasticity.
And then the last thing that they did was
they actually wrote a letter to other students that were,
you know, for example, like a little younger than you.
Like what would you say?
How would you summarize all of this for them?
And I think this combination of feeling like,
oh, I hear the voices of other students who you know,
can sometimes feel dumb when they do something,
but then they learn to not feel that way,
to understand mistakes as growth and learning.
You get some scientific evidence
and then you are put in the position of
communicating that to other students.
I think it's quite brilliant honestly
and in this study there were measurable increases
in mindset, growth mindset.
And then also, particularly for students who had schools
where the cultures supported it.
There were, also improvements in grades.
- Wow. Just to make that very--
- Actually, I should say test scores.
I think there was like, I should like check on that.
I think it was like math grades and test scores.
But yeah.
- No, but either way, that's very compelling.
I mean, are there ways for parents to get that intervention
for either themselves or their kids?
Yeah, I'll make sure that you all have the hyperlink
to the work and some of this work was supported
by the Mindset Scholars Network.
And you know, there's a link where you can actually
get this also for educators.
I mean, I'll make sure that you have the right resources.
And finally I'll just say, I think parents
should read Carol's book.
I mean, they should read your book too.
They should read lots of books.
But I think Mindset is terrific
and it's beautifully written.
- Good advice.
So there's a lot of questions here.
So from YouTube, Joe asks, "Angela,
"can you use grit to force yourself to have a passion
"for something you have little interest in?
"For example, a job?"
- No. If you want more than a one word answer,
I can elaborate, but I don't think that
you can force yourself to be passionate about things.
So when I measure intrinsic motivation,
feeling genuinely curious about things
and also feeling like your work is aligned
with your personal values,
that is what's correlated with grit.
Not extrinsic, you know, like I was coerced to do it
or I'll make a lot of money if I do it.
So I think for me the advice would not be
to try to force yourself but actually to find
if you're already an adult, like to find a job
that is more closely aligned with your developed interests
and your values.
And if you're still a kid, I would say, you know,
the word you want to use about with passion is develop.
I think you want to develop passions that are mature
and so that requires, you know, lots and lots of time,
you know, doing things becoming more and more
and more interested in them and committed to them.
But I don't think it's a process of forcing yourself
or for anybody else to force you either.
- And this is really interesting because, so you know, grit.
When people think of the word just in the colloquial sense,
they think of like being able to power through pain--
- I know.
- As one form of grit.
But that's not what you're saying.
- Which is the wrong word.
- No, it's a great word.
You can exhibit the qualities of grit,
but it's not because you're powering through pain,
it's because you are intrinsically motivated
in what you're doing.
- Yeah. And I don't want to paint this like,
you know, look, you work really hard, Sal.
I work really hard.
I think there are parts of our day
where we don't want to do what we have to do,
but we have to do it.
But I would say about myself and I'm sure
that you would say it about like, you love what you do,
you love what you do.
And so yeah, there's practice and there's hard work
and there's getting over disappointment.
Nobody loves doing it, but overall you love what you do
and I think that's the part that's missing in that
one syllable word that it doesn't sound like it.
But when I study it and when I find it
in a really high performer, it's really always there.
- You know, I'll throw out a hack that I think
is related to Joe's question and I think it's consistent
with what you said, but I have no scientific backing
other than my N of one and what's going on in my own
bizarre head, which is one of my skills that I have
and I'm quite proud of it, is I can convince myself
to be passionate about almost anything.
- Is that right?
Wait, give me an example.
- Oh, almost any I, you know, well,
I mean, a lot of people in Khan Academy,
they can hear it in my voice sometimes in these videos,
like I'm excited about the Aldol reaction
and they're like, why?
I was like, well, I don't even make the video
until I am excited about it
because there is something exciting.
You know, in academics, what I remind students
is almost everything is the culmination
of someone's life work.
And they would have killed to have the answers
that you have in your textbook
or that are being explained to you on a Khan Academy video.
And that by itself makes it exciting.
You know, and even things as part of my job
that aren't like my favorite thing, you know,
I love our auditors, they're great people,
but you know, sitting in like a meeting
about our audit report isn't like, you know what,
I clicked my heels on it, but I remind myself,
no, this isn't a very important step in order for us
to become a real organization in order for us
to serve more people.
So I definitely do that, I remind myself
why what I'm doing matters. - Yes.
- And, you know, I had a boss that told me my first,
you know, I was working at a big company
and there's times when I was like, "Oh, it doesn't matter
"if I show up or not, I'm kind of a cog in this big thing."
And he said, "Look, you just have to show up
"and make yourself and make the company better off today
"than it was yesterday."
And there's something about that that made me feel
very motivated about it.
And I'm like, "Oh yeah, yeah, I can get passionate
"about that."
But I think we're consistent.
As long as you can get yourself authentically passionate,
motivated, then you can, the grit will kind of happen
or can happen.
- Yeah. And okay, so you said,
oh, this is your N of one.
Like, let me give you a little science behind that.
So, when you think about why you have to go
to an auditing meeting or think about kids
doing their homework, right?
I mean, so many kids feel like, "Why am I doing this?
"This is totally pointless."
What they're feeling is that there isn't
any purpose to their work.
There isn't any like this is a means, but what's the end?
And so what your maybe your boss did,
and certainly what human beings do is it's useful
to think about your goals hierarchically.
Like, you know, why am I on this video with
Khan Academy, with Sal Khan?
It's like, because actually I believe that
psychological science can help kids thrive.
So for me, this time that we're spending together
has a purpose.
If a kid is doing their homework and they see the point
of doing these, you know, practice problems or like,
and they see the point of this class overall,
it's really like what you're doing is you're helping them
see the kind of the goal that sits above this goal.
Like, "Oh, this is the reason why I'm doing it.
"The hierarchy makes sense to me."
So I agree with you that sometimes we forget
and then we have to remind ourselves
and then it gives meaning and purpose to something
that otherwise would be mundane.
But I guess I wouldn't go so far as
recommending to people that you could
make yourself passionate about everything.
I don't think that's what you're saying,
because I don't think, I don't think it's possible
for people to like really literally be randomly assigned
to a job and then just be,
'cause I think about your life, Sal, and I think,
you know, obviously it took an unexpected turn
when you left, you know, your career track
and you became who you are today.
But I also have to believe that, you know,
I couldn't just like have randomly selected
any career path for you that you would be working as hard
as you are now, for Khan Academy.
- Oh, for sure, for sure.
I mean there's definitely an optimization.
When I have a choice, I definitely am optimizing
for what fills my bucket, so to speak.
And I'm learning a lot of five-year-old language.
(laughing)
But what fills my bucket.
But no, it's an interesting, I mean I have to ponder that.
I have to meditate on that more to what
am I living in my own delusion or not?
- I think you've made it,
here's how I just taught this undergraduate class
called Grit Lab to 60 undergraduates at my university,
University of Pennsylvania.
And when I had to summarize the entire class
in the last hour of the class, I said,
"All right, three things.
"Choose easy, work hard, pay it forward."
And the choose easy was about choosing things
that you're naturally or intrinsically interested in.
They feel like they resonate with your values,
you're good at them or like, I actually think
that's the part that you did.
You chose something that you're very, very good at
and committed to, it resonates with your deepest values,
you love learning, you probably love teaching. Okay.
Then what's number two?
Number two is work hard.
And number two is you know what?
The audit is part of running Khan Academy.
You know what?
Raising money is part of Khan Academy.
I'm sure you don't like that either.
You know what, like doing whatever it is
that you need to do.
And I think that's where you're using these like
mental hacks to kind of like get yourself to be excited
about an audit or, and that's the part where
you do need to use discipline and strategies to work hard.
And by the way, the third part is paid forward, right?
So, you know, for every good person in life, you know,
that means, you know, doing things for other people.
But I do think that sometimes young people
get these confused and they think they should choose hard
and that the work should be easy.
But like, no, you choose things that are kind of fluent
and fluid for you and then there's always
going to be friction and that's when you have to learn
all these ways to work hard.
Does that make any sense?
- No, it made a ton of sense
and this is a fascinating conversation,
you know, whenever we're having these good conversations,
the time goes by far faster than I would like.
I hope we have more time to have this conversation
'cause I think we're just getting started.
And maybe we have time for one more question from YouTube,
Sanjiv Kumar asks, can anyone develop grit at any age
or is it more specific for children and young adults?
- I really do believe that one of the great lessons
of psychological science over the last few decades
is that we are remarkably malleable.
In other words, Carol Dweck is not only right
about intelligence but about pretty much
every other facet of human nature.
And I'm not saying that you can metamorphose
into like some completely different human being in a day,
but I do think, yeah, you can develop growth mindset,
you can develop grit, you can become a nicer person,
you can become a better listener, you can become
a little more emotionally, like all of those things.
And it's not just childhood and it's not just adolescence
and it's not even just early adulthood or middle adulthood.
There's not a point in the entire span of a life
where people stop learning and growing
if they're open to it.
- Wow. I want us to have a conversation about
each of those things 'cause I want all of them.
(laughing)
For myself.
- I would love to have another conversation, Sal.
You know, I'm a huge fan of Khan Academy
and I'm a huge fan of yours.
- Let's book it cause I think we're just getting started.
I mean there's so many questions folks are,
I'm trying to see if I could squeeze one more in.
Let's see, this is a big one, but from YouTube Bilal A asks,
"Where does passion come from?
"I am 31 and still trying to find my passion.
"I don't find anything interesting enough
"to put my soul into."
Any thoughts there?
I have some thoughts.
- Okay, well you start with your thoughts
and then I'll end and this will be a good last question.
What's your thought first?
- My quick advice for Bilal is make space for exploration.
I had that same angst when I was young,
I had good jobs, but they weren't my passion.
But I had space for exploration.
And through that space for exploration,
I was able to find my true passion.
- Okay. That's great advice.
I agree with you.
And when I was 31 I was crying and crying
on my living room couch, not knowing
what I wanted to do with my life, literally.
I mean, ask my husband.
The couch was nearly salty with like,
you know, you could almost see the precipitate of the salt
on the surface of the pillows.
I was crying that much, and I really like sympathize
with this feeling of like, "Oh my gosh, you know,
"I'm trying to have a passion, but I don't know what it is."
And for me it was, you know, giving myself little freedom
but I think also it was reflecting on
what I had become interested in in the past.
And when I thought back to when I was 16 years old,
I remembered that when I was 16 I went to summer school.
And because my parents who were very cheap,
like wouldn't pay for anything until like
their kids could pay for it.
So I had saved up all my money and the first time
I could afford to do anything over the summer
was when I was 16.
So I got to choose and I opened up that course catalog.
And what did I choose?
I chose two classes.
Psychology and nonfiction writing.
And that's essentially all I do all day.
Psychology and nonfiction writing.
So I guess I would suggest that if you're a 31 year old
who like me was maybe crying a lot, angst ridden.
Is that in addition to giving yourself some space
for self exploration is, try to recall in your life
the times where you were interested in things
or you were excited and you might be able
to piece together some of the puzzle and I kid you not,
when I was 32, I just like, I had thought about it,
I was like, "Oh, I'm interested in psychology,
"I'm interested in writing.
"I used to teach math.
"That must be, and I'm pretty good at math
"or I like math, I don't know.
"And I think I should be a psychologist."
And then I went to graduate school.
- Wow. And then you became Angela Duckworth.
Well then I learned a lot about psychology, I'll say that.
Yeah, I think for me, I would say that now
my work is my calling and it is who I am.
I think about it all the time.
I think about it if I wake up in the middle of the night,
I think about it on Sunday morning.
I think about it on Friday night.
And I think that's what this 31 year old wants.
They want that.
And it was a process.
I don't want to say it happened, you know,
in a moment in time, but, but there was, you know,
a long period of struggle.
And I do empathize with that and I have
a lot of hope for you because, you know,
you too, Sal probably couldn't have foreseen
that this would be your calling, but it is,
and callings generally, you know,
take a while to develop and to deepen over time.
- No, that's incredible, incredible advice.
And Angela, I think I'll commit us.
We're going to have at least one more conversation--
- Let's do it.
- For all these other questions.
- I would love that.
- So thank you so much for joining us.
Thanks everyone else for joining us.
As you could tell, we wish we could do this
for a long time more, but we will,
it's good to end on a high point of people wanting more.
So, please join us, for future live streams,
tomorrow, if I'm correct, I think we're going to have
Jim Nondorf from the University of Chicago,
the head of admissions there.
So look forward to seeing all of you all tomorrow.
Thanks, Angela.
- Bye.