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hello I'm Charlie LeSueur we're back once again with Mysteries of the Superstition
Mountains and today we're gonna be talking with Liz Nicklus from the
Superstition Mountain Museum and she has some more to tell us a continuation show
so to speak on the the story she was telling us about the stone crosses she
said she's come across some more information so we're excited to hear it
so let's get on with our interview right here with Liz Nicholas. Liz it's good to
be out here with you again
I hear we've got some more information on the stone
crosses and we've got a beautiful shot of the soups behind you there the mountain and
the barn the Apache land barn and all sorts of things that came from Apacheland
when it was moved over here but we did a segment on the crosses the the
Spanish crosses, the stone crosses and you got a hold of me and said that you
have come up with some visuals and some things to share with us about those
crosses, maybe the stones. I don't know but... but especially the crosses to let us
know maybe some of the rest of the story what have you got to share with us.
well you know I love show and tell and this was this was an exciting moment for me
I'm not going to give you all the details but let me just say
that completely inadvertently or when I was on a different mission I came across
something on the museum grounds that I wasn't aware of previously
OH!!!
OH! OH!!!
OH!!
[Laughter]
Oh!
That was my reaction. wait it gets better
those are the real deal? no.. ok.
those are they are copies yeah. ok, however.....
OH!!!!!!!
the latin heart again a copy from what I understand the originals are no
longer in existence. Yeah I heard they are not but..the crosses. and I 've heard that even some of the copies
of these do not exist anymore but guess what
the museum has acquired a copy of the latin heart and of the stone crosses
what's on the other side?
more.. more. MORE okay now the big question is now you found
them what are you gonna do with them. oh absolutely these are going on exhibit in
the museum right next to the Peralta stones we feel like we want to tell the
rest of the story because as I mentioned before there are many people who don't
know the whole story this is a mystery to them the Latin heart so now we're
going to give them a love another piece of the mystery and another thing to
investigate and they will be on exhibit right next to the stones in the museum
all right refresh our memory on the Latin Heart and the story behind that
the Latin heart which was found over in the area where the original Peralta
stones were found but many years later
what they say
is that if you follow the clues on the Peralta stones it'll get you to the
vicinity of where the gold mine is once you're there once you've exhausted all
the clues on the stones you remove the horse heart that is in that little inset
there you put the heart in and these little words and sayings and some of
them I mean there there's codes on here it has to be deciphered will lead you to
the exact spot where the mine is located well what I understand about that the
the heart here is that they thought it was Latin but it's really not it's
Roman it's Roman numerals or whatever old ancient ones not even the ones that
they use today and if you saw another copy of these and I have seen pictures
of other copies of the stones there are actually areas where you can't read the
words and they've kind of scratched them out or they've worn them away I see on
this copy that actually just avoided putting those and we have big empty
spaces where those would have been so again this is a later copy but I was
told and I think I mentioned it the first time that the person that had the
the good replicas destroyed them I don't know if that's true and I don't know why
they would do it, but that's what I heard the good replicas the good replicas of the Latin heart
the last been destroyed and so the real one and the real one from what I
understand has also been destroyed oh that's
I meant yeah but I understood for what I'm hearing the replica also is
destroyed now boy so you have but I don't know do you have like maybe
possibly the one and only replica it's very possible. whoa! okay now now as far
as the the crosses go a lot of people don't really know that much about the
crosses but I'll tell you what I read correct me if I'm wrong is that you know
the story goes there was the massacre which happened just in back of the over
to the mountains there correct and at that time that's when it's believed that
that contingency dropped the stone the the crosses right as the others were
trying to get out the other side they dropped the the the stone the Peralta
stone maps right now you know depending on which version you believe they all
came out this side this version just it's handy to say that they split up
well what I heard what I've always heard was that when they were massacred down
in the area where the crosses were found I'm sorry where the Peralta stones were
found that their mules or their burrows or whatever they had took off back in
this direction because they knew that's where their barn was that's where their
home was they took off alone riderless and eventually their saddle packs fell
off and these were in the saddlebags yeah that's what I've heard yeah and and
those fell out over there yeah the stones and they fell out here which kind
of makes sense sure if it was gonna you know happen that way yeah and of course
they'd be buried over the years with the rain you know some people say yeah and
they stopped and they buried them well the thing is if you've got some people
that are chasing you're trying to kill you hold on we gotta stop we gotta bury these suckers, No!
and over time the erosion and the rain and so forth would bury them mm-hmm this is
amazing stuff here. I know I'm absolutely thrilled have you ever heard about a
Jesuit Church over here off the Peralta trailhead you know I had not heard that
story that's that's news to me that is an absolute news story to me and you
know what anything's possible. well the thing is is according to record not
legend but according to record they didn't build anything north of the Gila
River that was it I understand there was one on the Gila River
but if there was anything up there and people swear to this day that there was
one up there it's but it's like one of those things it was there well where's
the proof you know well it's an interesting thing because people are
saying that there there was something there maybe they're using the term built
loosely like maybe it was you know who knows a meeting ground an encampment
like no circle stone type yeah maybe that's what it was yeah I don't know
interesting. I have not heard that well I guess at one point some Jesuit priests
were up here taking a tour of the mountains this is recent this is more
recent years and word got out that they were up there taking the gold out like
with a scout troop or something he held these things build. I'm surprised I
didn't visit the amethyst mine while they were here another story yeah
another story for another time. but you know it's like I was talking
with Larry it's a true thing there's always an again I say it's not a pun but
I guess it is because lack of a better term there's always a nugget of truth in
all of these things absolutely upon and I'm not gonna use any more metaphors
like I did up there well I will use one it's like peeling away the layers of an
onion you know. well it's true. you know and you always find another story no
there's something so this has been fascinating well you know when my
studying about the the cross is a yeah I I did not know about the heart myself
until about three years ago and someone mentioned and I started doing my
research and you know as it is with the Dutchman the more research you start
doing the more confused you get because there's so much conflicting information
even if you think you have eyewitnesses there's still conflicting information
now have you ever met Mike Bilberry I have not. the one that allegedly and I
always say allegedly because you know there's gonna be somebody out there
that's gonna even that they're gonna say no it's true so he's the one that found
him all right and then there's the other story where someone went back in and
back behind tortilla Flat there was a series of Mines back there and they
found all sorts of things and these were buried inside a cave in there. but I
guess that the consensus is it's the Bilberry story.. that's the one
that's the most the most frequent absolutely the Bilberry story. and
now I understand. is he still around.
I hate to even ask that
I haven't seen anything recent I mean it was back in the 80s
that he found him so presumably were something like yeah about 82 it's
conceivable he's still around but I don't know I don't know it cuz I believe
he was a young man yes, yes he would be around some of our ages...
[laughter]
but I, I understood
someone who's asking the other day well does he still have them. not asking but a
statement he still has them. someone says I don't know does he.
You know last we heard he had the stones. that would be something interesting to investigate
So I don't know maybe he does have the crosses the one thing about the stones
and or the crosses is that you know there's the other stories where somebody
found those and then Travis so... yeah. yeah Marlow from the book right that he paid
$100 to this person for the the stones and that's where he got him he didn't
find him out there but you know. there's, there's pros and cons to that story
because if somebody found those out there no matter who they were.
Know matter how naive they were well maybe not but they they would want to sell those that
I think they'd want to check me would think you wouldn't give here they are
100 bucks in there yours yeah I don't think so
you know it's we'll probably never know the full story now with with Mike if
he's still around we now that would be a story but I'm surprised I would be very
surprised if with all the publicity the stones have gotten all the books that
have been written and all the publicity and on the web about the stones
themselves that he wouldn't come forward if he had the originals and say
something about it well yeah but if you had the if you found the Dutchman mine
would you tell people
well... not today I wouldn't. not today. maybe after you mined the heck out of it. so Mike if you're out
there. Mike. Mike if you're listening we'd like to hear from you but Mike... Mike Bilberry
we'd love to hear from you or someone who knows about the cross. absolutely
honestly we we're honest people and you know what if he was up to it we'd love
to have him at the museum to speak about them wouldn't that be it that would
be amazing. Mike you have no been invitation Mike all right well there you
go someone this if he's still around here that's gonna get to him
yep. so that would be fantastic. wonderful and we helped you find the crosses yes
you did you would you have actually looked for that and the heart if we
hadn't done that well you know what I would have found them eventually but I
wouldn't have been as excited I was like I said I felt like I was opening Tut's
tomb when I so pin the Box in there they were. ah! so Liz what have you got going here
at the Museum in the near future oh my goodness our season is just getting
started we just had the opening of our g-scale
Railroad that started off on November 4th that's gonna be open right through
April, April- May we keep it open through then three days a week January 13th and
14th is the biggest event of the year Heritage Days we celebrate the the lore
of Apacheland and the movie history from there we celebrate Native American
culture we have the Yellow Bird dancers here Native American vendors other
vendors will be here and I love it cuz you have gluten-free ice cream. yes
scones or so anyway whatever is right here it's all good and fry bread. fry
bread! and Fry bread. fry bread the big one. we have Michael Dante
will be here Ron Nixs will
be here. a big special presentation that day yes that weekend yes for the Arizona
cowboy the Arizona dude. The Arizona dude, The Arizona D...ude. Bob Roloff is going to get his boot
print yes he is alright it's about time. and on Friday Michael Dante is gonna be
playing our what is it Apache rifles he's gonna be playing in the chapel and
taking questions.oh that well be interesting that was he and Audie Murphy
mm-hmm Buster Crabbe I think of Ben Cooper so that'll be great that is a big
event it's the only event we charge for in the year and it's only $5 to get in
it's a major fundraiser for the museum but it's a lot of fun it's all weekend
you have to come out and see it, Now that's January what 13 and 14 and I'll
be there and you'll be there absolutely and Dave will be there okay we'll have
the Buffalo soldiers will be here. I loved the Buffalo Soldiers will have some
some stuff to sell on behalf of the Mysteries of the Superstitions. wonderful
we'd like to thank Liz Nicholas for being with us
here today and sharing some more about the old Spanish crosses or the stone
crosses join us next time when we talk about more mysteries of the Superstition
Mountain
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